Budget Committee - September 24, 2025   9/24/2025

Roll Call

• • 00:01:57
    St Paul, City Council,
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:03:09
    Good morning, good morning.
  • 00:03:13
    We have a very packed schedule today, really hoping we get a little bit of a lunch break today.
  • 00:03:19
    Otherwise, council members, please host yourselves.
  • 00:03:23
    Today is going to be, I think, a little bit long for bets and seats.
  • 00:03:27
    First up, one of everyone's favorite departments, which I may or may not say every single time a department director comes, but we do have the illustrious Parks and Rec department coming to present to us.
  • 00:03:43
    We have only department director Andy Rodriguez presenting to us, I believe, with maybe support from staff.
  • 00:03:54
    We are very excited to kick this day off with you.
  • 00:03:57
    So with that, I will hand over the presentation to you.
  • 00:03:59
    Thank you so much for being here today.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:04:01
    Awesome.
  • 00:04:02
    Thank you, Council Vice President, Council Members, for having us here today to go over the 2026 proposed parks budget.
  • 00:04:08
    Just wanted to note before we start, just all the awesome partners and park staff that are here today.
  • 00:04:14
    I see members of Como Friends, the St. Paul Parks Conservancy.
  • 00:04:17
    Thank you for being here.
  • 00:04:19
    Obviously, park staff.
  • 00:04:20
    Brandon from the Sauna Foundation, welcome.
  • 00:04:22
    Appreciate you being here.
  • 00:04:24
    Partnerships make the world go round in parks.
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    Couldn't do it without all of their support, whether it's volunteers, private fundraising,
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    and the City Council.
  • 00:04:33
    I appreciate the work they do every day and keeping our system flowing as it should be.
  • 00:04:45
    of the year 2020-2026.
  • 00:05:04
    Parks being economic drivers for the city, and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention other more local events like Lower Town Sounds, the Jazz Festival, the St. Paul Get Down, those types of events that are really destination type events for a lot of people.
  • 00:05:21
    Here's our agenda that we'll cover today, giving the Executive Summary 2025 budget recap, update on recent initiatives, and then proposed changes along with some other revenue changes and outlooks, and then time for questions.
  • 00:05:35
    Just a quick recap on our vision, mission, strategic planning goals, really focused work around community health and well-being, race equity and accessibility, sustainability and stewardship, creating vibrancy, that's our goal, access and making sure that people have the ability to recreate however they see fit.
  • 00:05:57
    here's a basic overview of the primary services and programs provided by Parks and Recreation again remain very proud to lead a team in this work very wide-ranging scope of what we do every day youth employment after-school programming recreation for all ages
  • 00:06:13
    for the City of St. Paul.
  • 00:06:35
    here's our organizational chart for contacts just to give you an overview of the various work divisions within parks.
  • 00:06:42
    Total FTEs is around 641.8 and as you see just kind of further outlines the work divisions that I previously mentioned and all the scope of services that we do.
  • 00:06:55
    Before we jump into the bulk of the presentation, I wanted to spend some time at the start, especially in light of recent tragic events in Minneapolis and just across our country, to talk about safety, our public safety in our work.
  • 00:07:07
    And although this is rec center focused, this applies a lot to our aquatics facilities, our regional parks, and our 184 neighborhood parks as well.
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    Here on the slide, you'll see a rundown of various types of safety incidents reported in our recreation centers over the last year, including incidents involving firearms.
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    We have continued to prioritize a focus on safety protocols, staff training, community engagement.
  • 00:07:31
    But with 26 facilities across the city, we need to be intentional in our discussions about safety within our buildings.
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    We continue to see very high visitorship at our centers.
  • 00:07:41
    I think it was over 2.1 million visits to rec centers last year.
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    Over 60,000 enrollments and over 2,000 activities offered.
  • 00:07:53
    and the City of St Paul.
  • 00:08:11
    but with a hefty focus on safety improvements in these spaces specifically the Rec Services Division has updated their parks rules and regs to provide staff more support created a new tool for team members to respond consistently to unwanted behaviors and provided training for all staff and standard response protocols so I was pleased to see the data from St. Paul Public Library in their presentation that indicated a 40% drop in incidents since 2024
  • 00:08:39
    and that's due to investment in safety specialists within buildings.
  • 00:08:43
    Just noting without similar or additional investment in rec centers and aquatic facilities and the zoo, we risk an increase in safety incidents in our spaces resulting in increased stress and exposure for our frontline staff who are often entry-level jobs, folks dealing with a variety of challenging things that they have to encounter on a daily.
  • 00:09:03
    So we want to make sure that they're supported.
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    I think it was very important to note that at the start of this presentation.
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    The next four slides feature an overview of the 25 highlights across our system.
  • 00:09:17
    I won't read them all off, but a few items worth noting.
  • 00:09:20
    We remain in the top five nationally in terms of Park Score, ranking for 11 years straight.
  • 00:09:27
    Our Right Track program continues to thrive with over 800 plus youth internships and a record 3,000 applicants.
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    of the
  • 00:09:53
    which both facilities just very strong community response.
  • 00:09:56
    People have been thrilled with those spaces for the time that they've been open and Youth on Boards continues to be a very strong program welcoming its fifth cohort of 19 young people in the summer of 2025 and then as noted 16% in rec check participants as well.
  • 00:10:15
    Jumping to recent investments, again thanks to our free sports initiative over 20 youth teams participated in the rec state tournament this year during the last basketball season.
  • 00:10:26
    That's the largest number we've sent in recent memory.
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    This past spring the city formed over 90 volleyball teams.
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    That's a 14% participant increase and over 60 foot solid teams.
  • 00:10:37
    So that's 8% participant increase as well.
  • 00:10:40
    Our 18-year basketball participation nearly doubled.
  • 00:10:44
    That's mostly due to changing the offer date to Thursdays and starting the season after high school basketball to provide opportunity for those who didn't make their high school teams but still wanted a basketball opportunity.
  • 00:10:55
    2025 summer sports hosted 1,018 athletes.
  • 00:11:00
    our community first public safety programs, the Awakenings team which you got to meet a couple weeks ago which was an awesome presentation and I think some of you had a chance to network with them on a boat recently for their event that they had a couple weeks ago but we acquired, we're in the process of acquiring two more vans to accommodate their growth in the number of participants so currently enrolled to the program is around 133 which is almost doubled in the past two years
  • 00:11:32
    Noting the free swimming pilot at Jimmy Lee so far in 2025.
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    We've had just under 3,000 participants in free use swimming lessons across the city.
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    That's a thousand more than our year long goal in just the first eight months.
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    And then again, North End Community Center continues to see how that center is becoming a fixture for programming community gatherings.
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    You'll hear a little bit more about utilities and trees later in this presentation.
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    Jumping to the General Fund proposed changes, this is just a summary of the proposed changes to our General Fund.
  • 00:12:07
    Obviously, quite a change compared to the investments we made last year, but I'll get into more about each of these changes on the next few slides.
  • 00:12:20
    So noting first is the Rec Center AM hours reduction.
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    This slide and the next are challenging for us.
  • 00:12:28
    Obviously, it's a tough conversation to have any time we need to reduce service hours at our recreation center facilities.
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    It's not something we want to do.
  • 00:12:36
    However, in this challenging budget climate, we have to be creative to avoid layoffs and or wholesale closure of a facility, an option that we just don't want to consider.
  • 00:12:47
    So we conducted a comprehensive assessment of visits across time at each of our 26 rec centers to gain a big picture understanding of our peak and off-peak visitorship by location and we're happy to share that data with you.
  • 00:13:02
    From there we worked to determine how we could effectively reduce service hours with as little disruption as possible to the users who rely on our facilities.
  • 00:13:12
    These reductions largely include times that have lower overall attendance and visitorship and do not impact any programming, only drop-in use.
  • 00:13:23
    So noting here, joint use rec center weekday night hours, same situation here as the previous slide, shifting weekday closures at the sites listed here from either 8pm or 9pm to 6pm.
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    These centers listed on the slide typically see a significant reduction in the use in the evening hours once rec check is complete.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:13:46
    Thank you, Chair Kim.
• • Saura Jost
  • 00:13:52
    Director Rodriguez, for the previous slide with the AM hours, do those rec centers that also have libraries connected to them, are those aligning with the hours?
  • 00:14:04
    I know a lot of the libraries open at 10 a.m.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:14:07
    They would be in alignment with Highland as an example with both sides opening at 10 o'clock.
• • Saura Jost
  • 00:14:14
    Okay.
  • 00:14:15
    Thank you.
  • 00:14:15
    Yeah, no problem for sure
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:14:23
    just to close this slide out noting that in the evening hours once rec check ends for the day is where we see a significant reduction but this model allows us to keep sports practices or other plan programming in place but the centers themselves would be closed and unavailable for drop-in entry so if you're thinking in the winter time when we have to host all of our basketball practices in the evenings and things we can still do that it's just more of a controlled use that requires a lesser amount of staff
  • 00:14:53
    Jump into recreation center cleaning, reducing the frequency of park worker hours for cleaning inside recreation center facilities, utilizing other on-site resources as available.
  • 00:15:05
    That could be, as an example, you're taking out the trash or you're mopping up the floors or any kind of day-to-day task that you would have for a rec center.
  • 00:15:13
    of the City of St. Paul.
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    Jumping into our vacant office assistant one, looking at this as a reduction position was held vacant to help pay for staffing overlap.
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    So if you think of things like FMLA, paternity leave or things like that, eliminating this vacant FTE was prioritized over any other potential layoffs.
  • 00:15:54
    Extended leaves or unplanned staffing disruptions would require
  • 00:15:58
    our department to not backfill thereby potentially causing some programmatic or facility hour impacts so if you think of a community recreation specialist or facility lead that runs a rec center has to take a FMLA leave that often puts us in a tough position of how we cover that center does that burden go on to another existing employee or is there a supervisor that has to step in and cover for a certain type of time period like those are challenging decisions to keep our buildings operational and moving forward
  • 00:16:31
    design center for context is a multi-department impact in terms of the reduction design and construction team within parks is funded by project they are not a part of the general fund but without a funding source used to fund planning design time without a dedicated project or funding source this reduction leaves only a minimum budget for requests so prioritization would be challenging
  • 00:16:55
    Often times when there's a public works project or a water project it might overlap with something parks related where we need to consult and that's usually where funds are pulled from here.
  • 00:17:07
    So taking this out would cause a bit of strain for us if we have to dedicate more time to specific projects from our partners like public works or water.
  • 00:17:22
    utility increase this has been a multi-year effort to get the budget for our utilities for more than 80 buildings to be structurally balanced after a almost a decade of no budget increases noting that we're not just increasing our budget to keep pace with inflation like we're also doing much better in reducing our consumption and carbon footprint as well
  • 00:17:44
    so projects like the multi-phase geothermal project at the Como Zoo, high efficiency HVAC projects and boiler replacements at facilities across the city, and even our first rooftop solar projects at North End Community Center in Frogtown means we're also reducing our demand to help mitigate utility costs that we know will continue to go up.
  • 00:18:10
    This slide shows our historical budget to actual performance, but noting that this slide always spurs a little confusion as the final numbers for accounting purposes always look a bit different than reality as OFS does an amazing job balancing budgets across city departments.
  • 00:18:26
    We'd like to see these variances at zero, but the reality is even with the shifts that OFS makes as part of our year-end resolutions
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    noted at the bottom, even the revised budget is going to be off each year due to unforeseen expenses and or spending that changes compared to projections as final expenses come in.
  • 00:18:46
    So if you think about unaccounted for costs that we often have to tackle, floods, copper wire, fleet abatement, unplanned emergency events like we had a fire at Como
  • 00:19:03
    We had a golf course where we had to replace a structure.
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    Those types of things add up over time and we have to account for them towards the year end.
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    Jumping to slide 20, revenue overview of government funds.
  • 00:19:22
    This shows revenues from our non-enterprise funds.
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    We're continuing to look at ways to drive new revenues without creating barriers to our programs and services.
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    Happy to share that COMO classes and fees are doing quite well compared to the past years.
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    As I shared at our org committee meeting earlier this year, we're getting a lot of support from COMO friends for looking at all things
  • 00:19:42
    to develop a long-range plan for
  • 00:19:57
    from the state to assist with regional parks maintenance and support.
  • 00:20:01
    I've brought this up a few times in previous meetings and it remains a top priority for the city to advocate to fix, but the state has not met its statutory obligation for many years for regional park funding.
  • 00:20:15
    That is an issue that impacts regional parks across the metro, but specifically St Paul is that that burden ends up being taken on by us and ultimately the taxpayer.
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    Although you'll see in 2023, we did receive one small time bump that helped catch us up in a few spots.
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    Reality is that we're receiving only about 20% of the revenue that we should and it directly impacts, as mentioned, our regional parks throughout the city.
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    We'll continue to work with our legislators on that to get us to where we need to be, but building and park maintenance and support suffers due to that shortfall.
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    Enterprise Funds, which are largely golf fees and permits.
  • 00:21:03
    What a change a few years makes.
  • 00:21:06
    So coming out of the pandemic, golf has completely turned around as the industry has rebounded since 2020.
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    We're also seeing a strong increase in commissions from our leases at City House and Como Lakeside Pavilion.
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    Expect these trends to continue and our staff will continue to look at creative ways in generating and working to increase revenue streams across the system.
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    that could be increased vendors within regional parks, that could be how we leverage our underutilized facilities, lights at golf courses for driving ranges, things like that we will look at.
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    Our activity performance fund overviews, we've provided these reports in previous years as supplemental materials just because of the volume of what we have across accounts, but to help add more transparency to how we budget and track performance for about 100 of our business lines and accounting units.
  • 00:22:04
    So if there's materials we can send after this presentation to hit on that, we'll do that.
  • 00:22:11
    The feedback we received, I think, over the previous years have been very positive.
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    you know it's a large content of information so it can be a bit overwhelming so if you have any questions when we send those things or want to see a specific account just let us know.
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    budget summary and spending this slide shows adopted spending by fund and what's being proposed for 2026 a couple notations beyond our proposed budget reductions most changes are technical accounting shifts or adjustments but two other bigger ones I wanted to note one the solid waste fund we're shifting shifting a couple FTEs that we that were determined by public works OFS to
  • 00:22:54
    be eligible to be funded under the city's recycling and solid waste fund from the general fund to that fund.
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    The second note is emerald ash borer slash forestry.
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    Now that we're closing out EAB and the port funding partnership that we had after five years, we're shifting all budgeted forestry FTEs back to the general fund from the supply and maintenance special fund.
  • 00:23:17
    That's why you see such a big difference there at the end.
  • 00:23:22
    this means we're reducing the supply and maintenance fund budget and needing to increase the general fund budget to match up with the difference between what we've been carrying each year and what is the actual spending so we've added a note to clarify this but in short since we didn't increase the budget over the last five years to match up with actual salary costs we now have a one-time catch-up as we bring those staff back
  • 00:23:46
    that's covering, if correct myself, if I'm wrong, but cost of living, raises, and all those other things, correct?
  • 00:23:54
    Five years.
  • 00:23:56
    Thank you.
  • 00:23:59
    Here's a breakdown of our FTEs by fund over the last several years.
  • 00:24:04
    Again, a number of technical items here, but the net result from all funds is a net reduction of 3.51 FTEs compared to 2025.
  • 00:24:12
    You'll see on the next slide a bit more on the exact changes.
  • 00:24:21
    So for all these FTE changes, noting that we will not have any layoffs.
  • 00:24:25
    Rather, we'll be focusing on FTE reductions in either vacant or part-time titles, highlighting few as there are a few technical ones where budget balancing and accounting shifts mean no real impact to people, programs, or services.
  • 00:24:38
    As already discussed, we have the Forestry FTEs coming back to the General Fund from the Special Fund.
  • 00:24:43
    We have 2.5 FTEs moving from the general fund to the recycling and waste fund, 4.56 recreation and maintenance FTEs being reduced due to our proposed budget reductions.
  • 00:24:54
    These are largely part-time titles without any layoff impacts.
  • 00:24:58
    And similar to public works, but on a reduced scale, we're adding two FTEs to better account and manage our common-sense projects, which I will talk about in a little bit, but specifically new trades position and accountant.
  • 00:25:12
    with all the changes netting a reduction of 3.51 FTEs across all funds.
  • 00:25:27
    slide 26 personnel budget probably a little repetitive but here's a further breakdown of the costs of those FTEs that I just outlined.
  • 00:25:36
    Contractual salary increases and one-time catch-up forestry salary increases from not increasing over the past five years is largely driving the total net increase.
  • 00:25:54
    Jumping into Common Sense highlights to date, just again want to thank you all for the support of the Common Sense sales tax work.
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    So we're shifting from progress to date to what we're planning for next year for Common Sense in our capital budget portfolio.
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    This list should be a refresher from what we shared earlier this year with Council on upcoming projects.
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    All these projects are listed on our website.
  • 00:26:19
    but you'll note our focus remains on fixing and improving what we have.
  • 00:26:24
    That has always been the core focus with sales tax and tackling deferred maintenance and making sure that we're catching up to our overall portfolio and the work that is urgent.
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    So that's your HVAC repairs, roof repairs, courts, playgrounds, trail work, asphalt, all of those things fall under the category of deferred maintenance.
  • 00:26:44
    of the City Council.
  • 00:26:55
    16 million como geothermal project next year huge milestone for that facility in a multi-phase project also want to note that CIB remains a critical part of our capital budget plan leveraging matching up sources from CIB common sense or our nonprofit partners that are out there fundraising for us to help get projects done on an accelerated pace is very much priority
  • 00:27:20
    Parks owns and manages 70% of the city building asset portfolio.
  • 00:27:25
    So we appreciate your continued advocacy and support in maximizing the city's investment for multiple available capital funding sources.
  • 00:27:33
    It is very much a project or overall project that we look at from a variety of different lenses, whether that's federal grants, state funding, other funding sources, CIB in addition to common sense.
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    Jumping into trees.
  • 00:28:02
    For all intents and purposes, EAB, we're done with public EAB, which is great.
  • 00:28:08
    Acknowledging and thanking Todd Hurley and the leadership at the Port Authority for helping bring this creative funding partnership to the table and solve EAB right away while getting thousands of new trees in the ground.
  • 00:28:20
    Private EAB will remain a challenge or concern as homeowners address their trees at a different pace, which is where abatement procedure in place provides some limited support, but it's not enough to support the inquiries that come in across the entire city.
  • 00:28:38
    the 2026 budget has our forestry staff shifts but it does not include any additional investment it was a difficult decision for us for a variety of reasons as we work to prioritize holding spending flat as much as possible while not closing any recs facilities or reducing hours any further but this slide is a refresher from last year where we showed you what our money buys compared to where our ideal funding scenario is so our industry recommendations
  • 00:29:08
    that would have us address backlogs and reestablish pruning and planting standards across the city.
  • 00:29:16
    So we have a few slides that get into that in more detail, but highlighting as it stands out right now, our current budget does not have enough funding to replant every tree that will have to be removed.
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    of the
  • 00:29:46
    Homeowners would be waiting a minimum of around five years before a tree would be replanted after removal.
  • 00:29:52
    It's a long time.
  • 00:29:54
    That's far beyond the remove and replant within a year goal that we had indicated within our EAB response.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:30:03
    Thank you, and we've got a question from Chair Johnson.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 00:30:09
    Thank you, Director Rodriguez, for that.
  • 00:30:11
    I think this is really a helpful slide.
  • 00:30:15
    My question really stems from how, if at all, it changes with the passing, if there were the passing of the Tree Preservation Ordinance and just
  • 00:30:25
    thinking about that, does that timeline fit within the intent of where the ordinance lies?
  • 00:30:31
    Especially when the construction happens and essentially what we would be sharing and what we're passing would basically mandate that those trees are preserved even in the midst of the construction pieces.
  • 00:30:45
    So I don't know how the five-year timeline works with that.
  • 00:30:47
    and what would be needed to change that or to meet that need quicker if and when we basically make an ordinance that's implying that people will be able to see their tree canopy restored.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:31:00
    Council Vice President, Council Member, it's a great question and as we work towards a final draft of that ordinance for you all to review in the coming weeks.
  • 00:31:10
    There are still some budget implications related even if that ordinance is in effect.
  • 00:31:15
    That may address some of our construction-related tree removals and other things, but for our dead ash trees or any type of tree that need removal, I think we average 2,000 removals a year for anything that is dead, it still creates a backlog for us.
  • 00:31:32
    So in summary, it will help.
  • 00:31:34
    It will not solve the problem.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:31:36
    Yeah, and I'd also like to add to that point that pruning is particularly important as we see sort of major storms that roll through.
  • 00:31:43
    It creates an incredible strain on our forestry department to respond to all the right away incidents that we have.
  • 00:31:48
    But also just like having a regular budget to prune and maintain our trees also goes a long way for sort of that prevention point and just maintaining a healthy tree canopy to begin with.
  • 00:32:00
    But yeah, I really appreciate that question of sort of like,
  • 00:32:03
    as we look out in front of us and that there's interest in this tree preservation ordinance, what are sort of the costs associated to it, recognizing that you're presenting a budget that contains half of the cost that we would even need to remove, stump, or replant the canopy that we're going to be removing this next year.
  • 00:32:25
    Right, there's 2,000 trees, we have half a budget to repair or replace.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:32:30
    Thank you, Council Vice President.
  • 00:32:32
    Raising this issue, we see this as the start of a conversation for a larger issue that we need to solve.
  • 00:32:39
    To do right by our residents and making sure that we can catch up in our work.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 00:32:43
    I think this is another piece of where it would be really helpful to see the two, three, four, five-year plan, the 10-year plan.
  • 00:32:56
    Just as we plan ahead for certain things, I feel like this continues to be a priority for the city.
  • 00:33:01
    And I think it's been echoed by multiple council members.
  • 00:33:04
    I know for me, this is important to my residents as well.
  • 00:33:06
    On the east side we try to keep as many of our trees for simply for the peace of being able to have shade and spaces in our neighborhood and a lot of our trees are old and so folks really take pride in some of them and I hear from constituents a lot when they talk through you know just what's the plan like what's you know so I think it would be really helpful to know the futuristic vision of it knowing that we would have to do it incrementally knowing that
  • 00:33:32
    you know even to all the things you've shared there are budget constraints there's going to continue to be budget constraints but I think being able to just see like where we would like to go would be helpful as well.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:33:44
    Council Vice President, Council Member, great point and that's something that we can send a what I would call like a five-year outlook with different funding scenarios tied to that and the impacts of the various funding amounts in terms of backlog or how we catch up we can definitely send that.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:33:59
    Thank you.
  • 00:34:00
    And I'll compound that point, Chair Johnson.
  • 00:34:02
    I always appreciate when you lift up kind of like the constituents that you represent, because on the east side and north end, we have some of the worst tree equity scores in the city.
  • 00:34:09
    So as we think about what does this program look like as we continue to implement, if we were to implement this program, and it's sort of a phased approach where we're prioritizing that tree replacement, but within the context of the tree canopy in our city.
  • 00:34:24
    Chair Jost.
• • Saura Jost
  • 00:34:26
    Thank you, Chair Kim.
  • 00:34:28
    Director Rodriguez.
  • 00:34:29
    If I'm looking at the slide correctly, it looks like there's basically a $5 million gap for what we need.
  • 00:34:35
    And so I have two questions.
  • 00:34:39
    For 2025, I don't recall, how did our tree funding compare to what the ideal full funding was that was needed?
  • 00:34:48
    And then also, I think this is probably similar to Council Member Johnson's question, but what are some of the opportunities for funding?
  • 00:34:59
    to close that gap, I mean that seems like a pretty large number for us to make up for just in our city budget alone.
  • 00:35:07
    And so I guess I'll be thinking about what are some of the opportunities or maybe our legislative agenda.
  • 00:35:14
    It looks like we're really relying on federal grants.
  • 00:35:18
    But that's just, I don't know if you know the answers to those questions, but those are just some of my thoughts.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:35:23
    Council Vice President, Council Member, those are great questions.
  • 00:35:26
    I can say for the 26 funding proposed compared to last year, it is the same.
  • 00:35:31
    OK.
  • 00:35:32
    So noting that.
  • 00:35:33
    And then to your point, it's like, yes, we look at all the different funding options and sources out there.
  • 00:35:38
    But your point is correct.
  • 00:35:39
    It's like, if there's a federal grant that we can apply for, we will do that.
  • 00:35:43
    I think it's also a good plug to note CIB in that $330,000.
  • 00:35:49
    Correct me if I'm wrong, Brad, but I don't think that's changed in quite some time.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:35:52
    And I think just to exacerbate this point like we've all been through our own type of pandemic but like our tree system is still sort of cleaning up the remnants of EAB.
  • 00:36:07
    EAB is a tree pandemic and it's partially because we sort of like lacked some biodiversity and what we planted around the city and that's you know not ours
  • 00:36:15
    to claim in terms of problems, but certainly the solutions that we have to bring to the table.
  • 00:36:19
    So hearing that even in the last ten years that increase that the city is bringing forward for just the maintenance of our trees, but in addition to the funding being limited coming from the federal government, even the state, to respond to a tree pandemic, we still have more work to do.
  • 00:36:39
    in that same sort of breath, a deep gratitude and congratulations to our Parks and Recs Department for doing such an incredible job responding to the EAB pandemic.
  • 00:36:49
    So thank you so much, and it's really good to hear that we're kind of on the tail end of it.
  • 00:36:52
    So thank you so much.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:36:53
    Appreciate that, thank you.
  • 00:36:57
    Noting here, this is a graphic just to explain on some of the questions that were asked in this item.
  • 00:37:04
    This graphic shows the removals versus planting ratio and where we have a gap.
  • 00:37:08
    And the ideal funding scenario would allow us to proceed with a one to one ratio within a year.
  • 00:37:13
    I think it's worth noting, if you look at our friends across the river and their budget for trees, it's almost double what we have with a similar canopy.
  • 00:37:22
    So just to put that into context for a similar size,
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:37:27
    Yeah, and I think this is a question for our Chief Budget Officer Camude.
  • 00:37:34
    I think then kind of given there's an interest in like sources, it'd be interesting to see where Minneapolis is pulling their sources from.
  • 00:37:41
    I'm sure sort of similar, similar sources but also like the amounts.
  • 00:37:46
    Are they getting more in federal grants?
  • 00:37:47
    Are they contributing more from their sort of like capital, capital improvement budget?
  • 00:37:52
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:37:53
    Thank you and just one more item on this just to note to expand on Councilmember Joe's question.
  • 00:37:59
    You know it may be worth it to go back to the Port Authority as well and talk about potential scenarios to support trees across the city and getting more trees in the ground.
  • 00:38:10
    They were obviously a pivotal partner in attacking EIB and getting us to a sustainable pace so if there's openness to that conversation that's something that we should have with them.
  • 00:38:26
    Before we move into wrap up and questions, I wanted to give a nod to our team, all of our downtown community partners, businesses, and residents who helped increase activation and bring more vibrancy to downtown this past summer.
  • 00:38:38
    That's very much partnership work with the Downtown Alliance, the St. Paul Parks Conservancy,
  • 00:38:44
    our design and construction team, our operations staff, St Paul Police, many others creating more reasons for people to visit our parks throughout through intentional creation of on-site features.
  • 00:38:56
    So here on this slide you'll see a list of some of the events and activations that brought people into our downtown parks to grab a bite to eat, listen to music, explore art, take a fitness class, or play with their dog at the new Kellogg Mall dog park that we implemented over the summer.
  • 00:39:13
    All of those partners did such a great job.
  • 00:39:16
    I failed to mention the music can't group as well who helped us activate Kellogg Mall Park but really just a strong partnership strategy to keep all of these parks busy and vibrant over the peak summer months.
  • 00:39:31
    And it's worth noting too, a survey of visitors to Kellogg Mall Park showed a decrease of feeling unsafe during the time that that project pilot was active and neighboring businesses and residents and even hotel guests reported satisfaction with feeling able to utilize that park for breaks and lunches or walks or visits after work.
  • 00:39:50
    So just a really strong partnership that I wanted to plug as we close out this presentation.
  • 00:39:56
    In the questions and discussion slide just to wrap here noting again just a summary of 2025 challenges and items that we're tracking public safety, downtown park activation, forestry as discussed are key components as we look into next year on the forestry piece just noting street reconstruction with the common sense
  • 00:40:21
    funding for public works is starting to ramp up as is lead line replacements which again just further exacerbates the forestry need and how we keep pace should any trees have to be removed during those projects which is always a likely scenario for various reasons so just adding that layer in as well to the forestry conversation but happy to stand for any questions appreciate your time today thank you any other additional thoughts or questions for yes
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:40:51
    We'll go to Chair Johnson and Councilmember Coleman.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 00:40:54
    Thank you.
  • 00:40:55
    And Director Rodriguez, I just made a note for myself as well to mention this to you and then also ask for an additional follow-up because I'm not sure if you know offhand.
  • 00:41:05
    When we were getting ready to review the HRA budget, we actually stumbled across the right track transfer that happens outside of the HRA budget.
  • 00:41:13
    I can't recall the exact amount offhand, but it does go to right track programming and I was actually wondering if you knew what that funding was for.
• • SPEAKER_01
  • 00:41:23
    Council Vice President, Council Members, the HRA transfer helps to support, I believe, its school year program.
  • 00:41:30
    We'd have to double check to get back to you, but that transfer is one that we've also advocated to increase.
  • 00:41:36
    We do have capacity to expand in various areas of right track.
  • 00:41:41
    I think that transfer has largely stayed constant, but it helps to support the staff.
  • 00:41:47
    That helps to support that work.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:41:50
    Council, Vice President, Council Member, I think Brad is correct, but we'll follow up with additional information.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 00:41:56
    Yeah, as a follow-up, I guess that would be really great.
  • 00:41:59
    One of the things we'll be talking about at the HRA this year is just learning a little bit more about the transfers that are placed on our general fund, our loan enterprise fund, and then our housing trust fund.
  • 00:42:10
    And there's a few different options that we seem to transfer out, almost about $2 million a year.
  • 00:42:16
    And this is just one of the items that came up, and so I know some of the
  • 00:42:21
    leadership staff or HRA staff or Council staff will be reaching out just to you Director Rodriguez about this one but that's usually the context for it and so yeah the follow-up would be appreciated as far as just you know what it's for I think it would be really helpful to know the partnerships that we have and what we're funding so thank you for that thank you appreciate it
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 00:42:42
    Thank you, Chair Kim.
  • 00:42:43
    Thank you so much, Director Rodriguez.
  • 00:42:44
    This has been obviously a very challenging budget year and I really appreciate both hearing about all of the highlights of this last year and the thought and care that's gone into some of these proposals moving forward.
  • 00:42:56
    My question is about the rec center AM hours reduction.
  • 00:43:01
    As we think about the possibility of reducing hours for rec centers, one of the things I'm curious about, offhand, great.
  • 00:43:09
    If not, we'd be happy to have a conversation about this later on.
  • 00:43:13
    But it's just what we know about the demographics of folks who are using the rec centers at earlier in the morning.
  • 00:43:19
    Does that tend to be young families?
  • 00:43:20
    Does that tend to be seniors?
  • 00:43:22
    Any sort of qualitative data that we might have on who that is would be really helpful.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:43:27
    Council Vice President, Council Member, thank you.
  • 00:43:29
    I was going to say the key word is qualitative.
  • 00:43:33
    My opinion, my team's opinion very much if you think of your seniors that like to walk on the walking track in the mornings or maybe the young family might want to come in early to use the gym when it's quiet or things like that which you know during that nine to ten o'clock hour
  • 00:43:51
    can be, you know, I'm the only person in the gym and I get it all to myself, right, and it feels good and I like it because it's quiet.
  • 00:43:59
    Like, there's value to those things, but I think that is the ultimate answer of who it would impact.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:44:07
    Thank you.
  • 00:44:07
    I will ask a follow-up and then we'll have Chair Bui and then Chair Just.
  • 00:44:11
    Just as a follow-up, can you just talk about a little the distinction between sort of like
  • 00:44:17
    that might be walking in to utilize program hours and how it might impact rec center hours.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:44:32
    Yeah, Council Vice President, so the difference between like program or drop in use is the way I would define it is something I write a program I registered for his program.
  • 00:44:42
    So I'm showing up at a specific time because I registered for an art class or basketball camp or
  • 00:44:47
    I'm part of a basketball team, so I know that I'm coming in from six to seven every Thursday.
  • 00:44:52
    The drop-in use is the family or young person, adult, what have you, that would just want to show up at the rec center during normal business hours and say, hey, is there any open gym?
  • 00:45:02
    Or hey, can I use the bathroom?
  • 00:45:04
    Or I'm just going to hang out in the hallway and use the Wi-Fi.
  • 00:45:07
    That's drop-in use.
  • 00:45:09
    And that's ultimately what we'd be impacting in the joint use rec center weekday night hours.
  • 00:45:16
    we'd still be open for that pre-registered programming opportunity for participants but if you wanted to drop in and use the Wi-Fi or other things it wouldn't be available and that's strictly a staffing resource, right?
  • 00:45:30
    If we were just on a pre-program schedule it requires less staff than if we're managing both drop-in use and structured programs and services.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:45:40
    This is great, and so just to lift that up, it sounds like that decision being made around joint use rec center mostly impacts weekday night hours and not the morning.
  • 00:45:50
    Morning times, okay, perfect.
  • 00:45:51
    And so morning time is just like, it is not open for even programming.
  • 00:45:54
    They open at ten, programming starts, but the weeknights is, they will be open for programming, not necessarily dropping use.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 00:46:01
    Correct.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:46:01
    Thank you so much, I really appreciate that.
  • 00:46:03
    The line is, chair Bui and then chair Jost.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 00:46:06
    Thank you, Vice President.
  • 00:46:09
    Thank you so much, Director Andy.
  • 00:46:11
    I really, really appreciate the detail that's in these slides.
  • 00:46:16
    I would say this is probably the best presentation in terms of a breakdown of each budget item.
  • 00:46:23
    I just wanted you to go through your slides.
  • 00:46:26
    So I do have three questions, if that's OK. And I already have the slides where they're
  • 00:46:32
    where questions are coming from.
  • 00:46:34
    So on slide six, you had started off with the safety incidents and bringing recognition to some of the challenges taking place.
  • 00:46:41
    You did mention an example, like the safety specialists at our libraries could be a potential investment.
  • 00:46:51
    Is that something that you're proposing, or is that something that's just a highlight
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:46:57
    I think we need to look at a public safety framework for the entirety of the parks department.
  • 00:47:02
    Obviously the rec centers, given the volume of facilities that we have, are a core focus but I'd be remiss if I didn't account for aquatic facilities or the Como Zoo or our regional park system.
  • 00:47:13
    I think safety specialists would help specifically with facilities.
  • 00:47:17
    and the City Council.
  • 00:47:21
    I will say that we continue to talk with police about what a revamped park security model could look like for the future, but obviously that requires investment.
  • 00:47:34
    or is there a possibility to have dedicated officers to regional parks or some of those neighborhood parks as well.
  • 00:47:40
    So in summary, to answer your question, I think this is a conversation starter to bring it to the table.
  • 00:47:46
    I don't have a concrete ask but it is something that we need to prioritize.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 00:47:51
    okay thank you because I did see it in your proposed budget I'm looking for the slide but that was something I just didn't know where was it at it was a slide 11 community first public safety public safety budget two hundred and eight thousand one time so is that the that's the conversation starter and the amount
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:48:13
    Yeah, and just to clarify what that, thank you Council Vice President, Council Member, just to verify what that is, that was a one-time cost from last year to support the Awakenings Program and specifically van transportation.
  • 00:48:26
    So the two vans mentioned in the presentation that they need to operate their program is what that $208,000 supported.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 00:48:35
    got it okay and then the awakenings program is there a rollover for that or is that one-time funding are we um anticipating on seeing that investment for next year uh council vice president council members no changes to the awakenings program so continue to roll to the following year
  • 00:48:52
    Perfect.
  • 00:48:53
    And then my last question, I really do appreciate you highlighting the need for investment from the state and regionals, particularly around our parks.
  • 00:49:05
    I definitely want to support that in our legislative agenda coming up.
  • 00:49:10
    I just was wondering, is there a ballpark or some cost estimate of how much we
  • 00:49:18
    should be anticipating on asking from, whether it's regionals or the state or the feds.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:49:24
    Council Vice President, Council Members, we can certainly follow up with that information.
  • 00:49:28
    I'd say historically, Brad correct me if I'm wrong, they're supposed to hit a threshold of around 40%.
  • 00:49:34
    A little higher.
  • 00:49:35
    A little higher.
  • 00:49:36
    But I think for the regional park system, we're at nine.
  • 00:49:40
    So that's a pretty big disparity.
  • 00:49:44
    that, like I said, ultimately impacts us in carrying the weight to support the operation and maintenance of those spaces.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 00:49:51
    Perfect.
  • 00:49:51
    And then just... Oh, I'm so sorry.
  • 00:49:53
    I just had one last question.
  • 00:49:53
    Yeah, yeah, please, please.
  • 00:49:55
    Very unrelated, hard pivot, but in my ward, many of my residents in the families really, really appreciate the free swimming classes, really appreciate the free youth sports.
  • 00:50:08
    So I'm super excited to hear that that's going to be continuing.
  • 00:50:13
    My question is just more so of, is there a breakdown of what type of sports?
  • 00:50:18
    Because I know we have a multi-purpose field at Jimmy Lee.
  • 00:50:24
    I'm really excited to see a lot of soccer, volleyball.
  • 00:50:31
    there has been a question of whether we're going to see football as a sport back into our facility.
  • 00:50:40
    So I was just wondering if football is part of that free sports and if you can give a breakdown.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:50:45
    Yeah, Council Vice President, Council Member, we can definitely send you what I would call a data breakdown of all the different sports offerings that we have across the city and by center.
  • 00:50:56
    We do offer flag football, and then tackle football has been an interesting kind of dynamic over the last couple years.
  • 00:51:02
    A lot of it is supported by neighborhood associations, so I think of Frogtown Football, the Westside Boosters and others specific to your ward.
  • 00:51:11
    We do have kind of a grassroots program that we've had for tackle football at Jimmy Lee.
  • 00:51:17
    That is led by Malik Davis and other community members and just really trying to get that program up and running and sustainable over the past.
  • 00:51:25
    for the past few years, but tackle football numbers have decreased for a variety of reasons.
  • 00:51:32
    One being safety, two being cost of equipment, other things.
  • 00:51:35
    So just a variety of different variables go into that specific sport, but we'd be happy to follow up with you on where we're at in board one specifically.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:51:45
    I had a quick follow-up to Chair Bui's question.
  • 00:51:50
    The statutory obligation for our regional parks obviously is not meeting both just like what they're required to pay us and we have a lot of them that need.
  • 00:51:57
    Is that a part of currently our legislative priorities?
  • 00:52:01
    And I'm sorry it's just it's such a long list but do we we actively lobby to get that menu filled?
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:52:07
    Council Vice President, I would say yes.
  • 00:52:10
    It is something that comes up every legislative session.
  • 00:52:13
    And there is a regional park delegation, the metro regional parks agencies meet weekly throughout session every year.
  • 00:52:22
    So it is a talker that is always raised and brought to the state, but where it lands in terms of priority for them.
  • 00:52:30
    kind of gets lost in translation, I'll say.
  • 00:52:32
    So I don't know how to move the needle there, but I would say that other regional park agencies across the metro feel the same way.
• • Saura Jost
  • 00:52:41
    Yeah, I appreciate it.
  • 00:52:44
    Chair Jost.
  • 00:52:46
    Thank you, Chair Kim.
  • 00:52:47
    Director Rodriguez, I have, Council Member Bui's question made me think a little bit more about the AM hours reduction that you're proposing.
  • 00:52:54
    A couple of questions.
  • 00:52:57
    I thought Oxford opens at 6.30 in the morning so does that it says you're shifting from 9 a.m. to 10 a.m. so is that just for is there one day that's happening at Oxford or are you shifting from 6.30 to 10?
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:53:11
    Council Vice President, Council Member that's a that's a good flag and a great question it kind of plays into the two sides of the building so okay the opening of
  • 00:53:22
    the facility early a.m. is for lap swim so that would continue with the rec center side so like fit like we'd be staffing the aquatic side of the building by aquatic staff but the rec center side like gyms fitness room walking track would be unavailable up until 10 o'clock
• • Saura Jost
  • 00:53:38
    And that site is typically not available until 9 a.m. right now.
  • 00:53:42
    Okay, I appreciate that.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:53:45
    That's a confusing one, so thank you for pointing that out.
• • Saura Jost
  • 00:53:47
    And then my other question, similarly, because I was mapping out where these rec centers are, with the closure or the reduction of one hour, do you feel that there's opportunities for residents to go to a different rec center?
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:54:02
    um potentially during that that time and maybe you don't know the answer to that now but that was just something i was thinking about um council vice president council member um these sites reflected here are what we classify in our world as hub sites that are open longer hours so the majority of other rec centers would open in the afternoon so to answer your question be limited to probably not in terms of other options that are out there
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 00:54:30
    And then we have Chair Johnson.
  • 00:54:34
    Thank you Council Vice President and Director Rodriguez again for just being able to be transparent.
  • 00:54:40
    I think through this my heart hurts every time I see Highwood Hills mentioned in any way, especially surrounding our reductions.
  • 00:54:48
    I'm just wondering,
  • 00:55:07
    is the traffic.
  • 00:55:08
    Could you share a little bit more about some of the decisions surrounding these particular rec centers?
  • 00:55:13
    And then as a follow-up, could I see some of the rec centers that have faced reduction over the last few years and which ones?
  • 00:55:22
    Because I'm just curious if we're going back to the same rec centers for reductions year after year or if we're
  • 00:55:28
    sharing the reduction piece across the city because I feel like I see I feel like I see how it hails on the list a couple of a few different times and other conversations that have come up in the past and I'm just wondering like and it's not this it's you know a yes isn't in part for advocating for those that are in my ward but across the city as well
  • 00:55:52
    and I'm just curious as to what goes into them and we are having similar conversations with the library because we have some libraries that are seeing that Arlington Hills is on that list for the libraries and the rec center.
  • 00:56:04
    Battle Creek is on this list as well, North End, Frogtown.
  • 00:56:10
    So like several different east side parks, recs, libraries this year are on
  • 00:56:17
    proposal for reductions in one way shape or form.
  • 00:56:19
    And I just want to know, one, what goes into it, but also how often that happens, and if that's been a reoccurring theme over the last maybe three, four years.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:56:30
    Yeah.
  • 00:56:30
    Council Vice President, Council Member noted and hear you.
  • 00:56:34
    Those are great questions, and we can certainly follow up with added data for those locations and how we got to the decision points that
  • 00:56:42
    We did.
  • 00:56:42
    I will note that to your question about the last couple years, specifically over the last four, if you count the ARPA, our American Rescue Plan infusion, we actually expanded ours at a lot of sites across the city.
  • 00:56:58
    of the City of St. Paul.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 00:57:28
    and could you itemize those things for me as well in the follow-up so like on this list like how like if for example the joint use the I see the flying items but like what is the joint use cuts specific for Highwood Hills for specific for the library I mean sorry for the rec centers
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 00:57:43
    Absolutely.
  • 00:57:44
    I think what would be helpful to also provide you is the relationship with the school district and the costs that are incurred there in terms of that agreement and noting how that kind of functions from a relationship or financial transaction standpoint.
  • 00:57:59
    That would be great.
  • 00:58:00
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 00:58:02
    I think that is the theme of this year, right?
  • 00:58:12
    We are seeing department directors and
  • 00:58:16
    city staff members offering up some really
  • 00:58:35
    budget engagement session is that residents really feel the constraints of city services and want us to ensure that we're investing in our city staff because that pothole that's not getting filled or that rec center that maybe isn't being offered the thing that they want anymore is a direct impact to the budget that we pass.
  • 00:58:52
    So tough decisions, but prioritizing keeping staff like we did during the COVID years is a value that I also share.
  • 00:59:00
    So I just appreciate that while this is a really difficult
  • 00:59:03
    Parks and Rec budget that focusing on maintaining staff.
  • 00:59:08
    And so kids can see that frequent face every time they walk into the rec center or their basketball coach year over year.
  • 00:59:14
    Those connections as we think about the Awakenings program too are just incredibly important as we think about the value of those relationships beyond titles and beyond sort of the walls of our rec centers.
  • 00:59:26
    The last thought I have for you is we have a ton of our rec
  • 00:59:32
    rec teams that go to state tournaments for different sports.
  • 00:59:37
    And I just would like to respectfully submit that
  • 00:59:42
    I'd love to get the North End some championships here.
  • 00:59:44
    And I'm sure other rec centers as well but naming that it's kids that aren't able to maybe access their school programming but are really like throwing down and yeah winning the championships for our rec program so those are kids that where this is such an invaluable space for them if they're not sort of accessing like traditional pathways of sports so
  • 01:00:06
    Thank you so much for your time today.
  • 01:00:18
    Thank you, Council Vice President.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 01:00:26
    We'll put that on Gina's performance goals for next year.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:00:29
    Yeah, Gina, you are now a Volun-Told to Get North End Championship.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 01:00:33
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:00:34
    Thank you, Andy.
• • SPEAKER_07
  • 01:00:36
    Thank you
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:00:39
    All right, we're going to take just a minute to transition.
  • 01:00:42
    And again, council members, please host yourself today.
  • 01:00:46
    We have hopefully a little, yes, please do, a little extra time.
  • 01:00:53
    Potentially we've got about, I think we buzzed in two hours for this, so I'm hoping that it won't take as much time.
  • 01:00:59
    But I also know that there is usually a very robust conversation around staffing levels in this department.
  • 01:01:05
    So we'll be prepared.
  • 01:01:06
    And I see folks filling in, so we'll give it another minute.
  • 01:01:10
    Again, please host yourself.
  • 01:01:13
    I will be attempting to do that in an hour, maybe during HR 8.
  • 01:01:24
    Oh, yeah, well then I dibs I dibs the I dibs the first rotation of that.
  • 01:01:35
    Yeah, I Know I know it's such a musical chairs, isn't it?
  • 01:01:43
    Did you see?
• • Saura Jost
  • 01:01:52
    The yellow ones are the orange ones
  • 01:01:58
    I feel like Jimmy has quite a bit of services.
  • 01:02:05
    Like they have a lot of contracts.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 01:02:13
    Really in the summertime there are a lot of schools, there are a lot of summer programs.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:02:24
    Well, if they take the full time, which I'm hoping will land with a 30 minute break before 1 o'clock, so I'm hoping
  • 01:02:50
    I mean, it depends on the questions.
  • 01:02:53
    But they made it through under an hour, so I think it's feeling pretty good.
  • 01:03:01
    But the goal is to have a break, and I'll let him know that he is the thing between us and a lunch break.
  • 01:03:13
    We're gonna get going here and just a friendly reminder like we didn't recess and so you know microphones are
  • 01:03:31
    are on for conversations around kiddos and bathroom breaks and all of the things today.
  • 01:03:36
    I think the only preamble that I'll offer today is, you know, sometimes it shows the human side of us, right, which everyone appreciates.
  • 01:03:47
    The only preamble that I'll offer is today we're setting the max levy.
  • 01:03:51
    The goal was to meet with the top five departments, which we were on track for.
  • 01:03:55
    So thank you so much for the departments to kind of respond to our call of wanting to hear budget presentations again from the top five.
  • 01:04:03
    Department, Parks and
  • 01:04:24
    Council values and alignment in last year's budget around fire.
  • 01:04:28
    I suspect a very similar approach this year.
  • 01:04:32
    It's really hard to pin city services against each other, and this is one that's really important for the community safety, for
  • 01:04:40
    I just want to welcome our Chief of St Paul Fire Butch Inks to the podium.
  • 01:04:49
    Thank you so much.
  • 01:04:49
    And I will kick it off to you for the presentation.
  • 01:04:51
    The only note that I will add is that your department is between us and a break and lunch.
  • 01:04:57
    So we will be very direct with our questions, but hoping that we end a little bit earlier than that two hour time allotment, which I think was very generous.
  • 01:05:06
    will do our best to stay on time together.
  • 01:05:08
    So with that, I'll hand it over to you, Chief.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:05:10
    Thank you, Council Vice President, City Council.
  • 01:05:12
    Thanks for having me here.
  • 01:05:13
    Let me start by saying, being a kid from the North End, you do have some championships in the North End.
  • 01:05:19
    They date back a little ways, but we have won some championships.
  • 01:05:25
    So thanks for having me here today.
  • 01:05:27
    I want to welcome our staff here as well, here for support.
  • 01:05:31
    As you well know, this budget cycle is really not fun for anybody.
  • 01:05:36
    So we'll present what we have proposed for next year and then just field some questions from there.
  • 01:05:44
    We'll talk a little bit about a quick executive summary about REN volumes, some changes proposed for 2026, and then just some services we provide, as well as a recap of our 2025 budget.
  • 01:06:01
    Again, we'll touch again on the 2026 changes.
  • 01:06:04
    And so a little bit of budget history, spending, FTE summary.
  • 01:06:09
    Chair, Chair, Chair, Chair, Chair,
  • 01:06:27
    We are well within the national standards.
  • 01:06:28
    We pride ourselves on getting out the door quick, responding quick, and send a large amount of resources to the calls that come in.
  • 01:06:38
    As I texted a few of you this morning, at four o'clock this morning, we had a fire in your ward that responded quickly, put the fire out.
  • 01:06:48
    still some tragedy there for that family.
  • 01:06:53
    We pride ourselves on really being an aggressive department that gets out quick and responds quick.
  • 01:07:01
    Some changes that you'll see that are in this presentation, and I call it a presentation, I don't think anybody's proposing to reduce responders in the fire department, so I'm here presenting to you.
  • 01:07:17
    we're looking at a reduction of three firefighters and I think that dates back to 2025 that that that reduction was scheduled to happen and it didn't and so moving into 2026 that reduction of three firefighters
  • 01:07:33
    a reduction of a deputy chief of EMS that's really centered around our CARES division and as well as nine BLS FTEs, six of which would be assigned to the overnight division of our BLS response and the other three CARES.
  • 01:07:51
    Our goals for 2026, as always, was to maintain a level of service to our residents, our businesses and visitors.
  • 01:07:57
    We work hard on recruiting and training and retaining firefighters and EMTs and paramedics.
  • 01:08:04
    We are a department.
  • 01:08:06
    When you talk about the fire service in general, the challenge is, nationwide, of keeping a full complement of responders.
  • 01:08:16
    In St. Paul, we've been very successful at
  • 01:08:21
    is filling all of our FTEs and in fact sometimes filling above our authorized FTEs to give us a full complement of responders as well as reduced overtime costs which is it's it's not normal and throughout the nation but here in St. Paul we we've been successful at that you know part of which and I think it covered here a little bit is is our Pathways program you know we truly have a program that's set up
  • 01:08:44
    that a 15 year old kid has a direct path to this position.
  • 01:08:50
    And what we've seen is that Explorer at 15 has moved on from there to our BLS Academy.
  • 01:08:58
    From there we've hired them as EMTs working in our BLS division and have now become firefighters and now starting to promote.
  • 01:09:07
    So it's a very successful Pathways program and it's why we
  • 01:09:12
    we are able to keep a full complement of responders and that BLS program has been really successful at a feeder program for our firefighters and as you'll see I think we're to date at 45 BLS employees EMTs are now firefighters.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:09:30
    Chair Johnson.
  • 01:09:33
    I apologize in advance, Chief Inc, because I didn't let you get too far before the first question.
  • 01:09:40
    So one of the things that came up during the police presentation was the non-fatal shooting unit.
  • 01:09:45
    And they talked a little bit about some of the milestones and the things that they've seen as far as progression of numbers.
  • 01:09:51
    Would you be able to do the same for the BLS program?
  • 01:09:53
    Can you attest to some of the successes or highlights?
  • 01:09:57
    I'm sorry Councilmember, I'm having trouble hearing I'm sorry and it's me so I mean it could also be that I have to lean in I guess a little bit to the mic I was just asking if you could share a little bit more about the BLS success as you mentioned it just being you know a successful piece of the fire department and there being notable things that you would note for the record about the BLS program itself yeah absolutely council vice president council member so the
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:10:26
    The division was created in 2018-2019 and it was really centered around providing a very specific response to a specific need.
  • 01:10:37
    Before that, we were sending our advanced life support units on a basic life support need.
  • 01:10:44
    And the way our system is set up, our advanced life support rigs would be out of service, our fire engines would be out of service then because they're tied together.
  • 01:10:53
    and they were responding to a basic life support need.
  • 01:10:55
    So that was one reason we implemented that.
  • 01:11:00
    The other is we wanted to create opportunities.
  • 01:11:04
    At the time we created 12 positions and what it did is create 12 new jobs for people aspiring to get into this profession.
  • 01:11:14
    And so those were kind of the reasons we started it.
  • 01:11:17
    Well what we didn't realize is that it would morph into
  • 01:11:22
    what we now just call it our feeder program on keeping us ahead of the curve when we're searching for firefighters.
  • 01:11:31
    Those are kind of the three main things why we did it, but now over the years, fast forward to today, we're realizing that.
  • 01:11:42
    there is such a high demand for a basic life support response that we have just continued to grow that division.
  • 01:11:54
    We're trying to stay ahead of the demand, right?
  • 01:11:57
    Historically, our run volume increases four to seven percent every year, and so to try to keep up with that
  • 01:12:07
    is hard and so this division has helped us at least keep our run volume or our run response times in an acceptable range but provide a very specific response for a specific need so it's done way more than I thought it would for us and it's very valuable operationally but also very valuable that
  • 01:12:33
    there is a pathway to get into this profession.
  • 01:12:36
    Not just to become a firefighter, but if you want to stay in the BLS division and respond in an ambulance, you can make a career out of it.
  • 01:12:44
    They make a decent wage, they're in the pension fund, they're in the union, and so it's a job opportunity for folks that want to get into this profession.
  • 01:12:54
    Does that answer your question?
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:12:56
    Yeah, it does.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:12:57
    Thank you.
  • 01:13:00
    some of the other goals for 2026 is the is the maintain aging infrastructure as you well know we opened up a new station 7 we're slated to open up a new station remodeled station 3 on West 7 I'm being told early October so we're holding on to that so what that will do is add a 16th fire station to our system which is historic in itself we often talk about that
  • 01:13:29
    you know, why we couldn't add more resources in the past.
  • 01:13:32
    We didn't have physical garage space, and I think I've toured with most of you at some of our stations.
  • 01:13:37
    We're jam-packed with rigs, backing out of here, pulling out into the alley here and here, and so we've used up all of our space.
  • 01:13:46
    to, you know, as much as we could for resources.
  • 01:13:49
    So by building new stations and remodeling stations, adding a new station to the system, we have physical garage space.
  • 01:13:56
    So that's been a real priority of ours.
  • 01:13:59
    The other that which is not on this slide is a plug-in is a priority of ours is the rig replacement.
  • 01:14:06
    It's not normally part of the general budget, but I want to just call it out that the cost of rigs have
  • 01:14:13
    in 2018 when I stepped in as the
  • 01:14:43
    And I call that out because it's in the special fund so we don't normally present on that.
  • 01:15:00
    We are now in a space where we're asking do we buy new or do we take the available funds we have
  • 01:15:07
    and invest in trying to keep our old fixed.
  • 01:15:11
    And that's what's happening nationwide.
  • 01:15:13
    And so what we are seeing, and we were very close to this not that long ago, is having our frontline rig go down, our reserve rig go down because it's older, and we were close to not having a physical rig to put in service.
  • 01:15:31
    because of the prices of the apparatus and where they've gone.
  • 01:15:38
    So how do we operate?
  • 01:15:44
    Our mission is to protect the people of St. Paul with public education, fire suppression, and rescue emergency medical services.
  • 01:15:50
    We partner with community to mitigate risks and respond to all calls for service with skill, dedication, and compassion.
  • 01:15:57
    This is our mission statement and has been since I've become chief.
  • 01:16:01
    when we took over we looked at what our current mission was and it was all centered around just responding to calls and we're as I'm sure all of you know we're much bigger than that but just going on a call.
  • 01:16:19
    Our 2025 budget recap some savings or unplanned costs really it's this is centered around
  • 01:16:30
    savings.
  • 01:16:31
    We recently piloted what we call a D shift, a delta shift.
  • 01:16:37
    We historically run on an ABC shift, and so what we decided to do was create a D shift, and we centered that around promotion spots.
  • 01:16:49
    We plugged some drivers, some captains, some district chiefs on a separate shift away from the norm.
  • 01:16:58
    And what that's allowed us to do, a couple of things.
  • 01:17:02
    It allows the employee to have flexibility on their schedule.
  • 01:17:05
    Our job is 24-7, it's demanding on the job itself is demanding and then it's demanding on
  • 01:17:12
    and the City Council.
  • 01:17:31
    and it reduces overtime costs by anywhere from $1,200 to $1,800 a day.
  • 01:17:37
    So we piloted it and it's I think the way of the future if you want to try to keep your staffing up high without spending as much in overtime.
  • 01:17:50
    You still have overtime costs.
  • 01:17:51
    we've always been a department to think of different ways and be innovative and this was an idea we had to try to reduce overtime costs while maintaining a certain level of staffing daily so to date since March 8th we're looking at about $235,000 in savings and projected out over a year if we were to expand
  • 01:18:16
    this thought process of drivers, captains, and chiefs, we see this potentially saving over a million dollars a year in overtime costs.
  • 01:18:32
    Our revenue forecast, we're on target with our projections.
  • 01:18:38
    and limited amendments for operational needs.
  • 01:18:41
    One personnel change or two personnel changes, if you include the D-Shift, is we've implemented the EMS supervisor role in a 24-hour capacity.
  • 01:18:54
    We go on close.
  • 01:18:56
    We're going to push 67,000 calls this year.
  • 01:19:00
    The majority of those are EMS in nature.
  • 01:19:02
    And what we found over time is
  • 01:19:05
    the EMS calls are growing exponentially and so we need to plug in some some increased supervision on the street for that and that's what this EMS supervisor does.
  • 01:19:16
    They also carry specialized equipment special training when they show up so they're they're a paramedic they're an additional paramedic when they show up and so they can provide assistance that way as well.
  • 01:19:29
    Some recent initiatives the expansion of the BLS division as you can see from 2022 From 21 and 2025 we're at 34 We're budgeted at 2.3 million and then as I mentioned About 45 BLS employees have transitioned into the field and career of firefighting.
  • 01:19:50
    So it's a division that is there's always turnover and so said council member
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:19:58
    Chair Johnson.
  • 01:20:00
    Thank you Council President and thank you Chief Inks.
  • 01:20:03
    I was going to wait to the next slide but I think this is somewhat related and I just wanted to ask a little bit about then the linked reduction to the CARES unit from here
  • 01:20:16
    for proposed changes.
  • 01:20:19
    I just want to make sure that I'm understanding that would this essentially make wipeout cares for 2026?
  • 01:20:25
    Does it still remain or does the program go away?
  • 01:20:28
    And then also could you speak a little bit more to the overnight BLS piece and how many BLS staff would remain on the overnight shift and if any and then yeah if this means that the CARES budget as a whole next year won't be in existence.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:20:45
    Yes, this would wipe out a specific response for the CARES team.
  • 01:20:55
    The CARES team would be reduced and so an intentional CARES response, a dedicated unit for CARES response would go away.
  • 01:21:06
    The plan for us is to expand what CARES has been trained in
  • 01:21:11
    to the
  • 01:21:23
    to the rest of the BLS.
  • 01:21:28
    And as far as the BLS goes, the overnight shift would not exist.
  • 01:21:34
    And so what that is and does is we average roughly seven plus runs through that time frame there in service.
  • 01:21:42
    Those runs will still come in.
  • 01:21:45
    And we will go back to the ALS units responding, taking an ALS asset out of service,
  • 01:21:53
    creating an ALS gap and in addition create as you know our ALS rigs are tied to a fire engine.
  • 01:22:02
    We would create a gap there and fire response as well between those hours.
  • 01:22:07
    The runs will still come in and we're never not going to go on a run but we're going to go back to away from the sending that specific
  • 01:22:17
    the needed resource for that call.
  • 01:22:20
    We're going to send our advanced life support units.
  • 01:22:23
    And then when you talk about CARES, our BLS rigs are busy.
  • 01:22:27
    They're going on, oftentimes they're all out of service because they're on calls.
  • 01:22:32
    And so that will happen in 2026 and we will not have a specific CARES response.
  • 01:22:40
    An ALS asset would go on that call as well.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:22:45
    Council President, Council Member
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:23:05
    yes the overnight BLS staffing and then of the CARES budget I guess it's being wiped out how are they being or is there a vacant positions within that budget as well so the CARES is uh there isn't vacancies there there are current currently six well I wouldn't call them vacancies because I just called them all and offered them jobs this week so they're there's final offers extended so those positions we
  • 01:23:34
    we had conditional offers out and they were conditioned on passing you know whatever we listed with a start date in there and five of the six so far have come back and they've passed everything so I personally called and extended a final offer to them and they will start October 13th and so we won't I'm waiting on the last name so yeah but that process has been in place since I think May or June so
  • 01:24:02
    It's such a long process to onboard people in our profession and hence why back to trying to staff above your authorized strength.
  • 01:24:12
    What we learned is during a 14 week fire academy you lose about 4% of your workforce so you were forever operating short.
  • 01:24:21
    So by over hiring, or I would almost say over hiring, hiring above our authorized strength
  • 01:24:27
    were able to keep up with that attrition.
  • 01:24:30
    So they will start October 13th.
  • 01:24:34
    And then the proposal for 2026 is through attrition.
  • 01:24:38
    Those positions would be reduced.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:24:41
    And we had a brief conversation sort of around that vacancy conversation with Tony Newborn.
  • 01:24:48
    I just want to name that I'm very against removing the
  • 01:25:04
    the CARES
  • 01:25:27
    that an ambulance or an ALS unit is responding to something that potentially a BLS unit could respond to, that also means that that station potentially is out and then firefighters there are not fully staffed and are not able to then respond to a fire call that could potentially come in.
  • 01:25:43
    So our coverage starts to kind of shift with like, and this isn't in any, I don't want to use that one.
  • 01:25:50
    It just is very patchwork based on who we have available, which is great because the system of our firefighters is responsive and nimble.
  • 01:26:02
    However, the impacts to that service delivery of just the quality of service, I think, has this really terrible kind of trickle up effect.
  • 01:26:12
    Can you just say maybe like one or two more things about that?
  • 01:26:15
    and the one of the reasons why I'm asking this question is because you know now more than ever as we look at major cuts to Medicaid and who's eligible for health services who can even access mental health right now we are going to see an increase of calls and then the ability to take time at those calls to respond appropriately kindly with compassion to the person that's probably experiencing maybe the worst day of their life which actually I think is probably every call that you get
  • 01:26:45
    but it's to name that they won't be able to spend the necessary time or the time that we would like with that person or family that's experiencing crisis because they'll get pulled to another priority call and so that shifting of that staffing has sort of like a very disparate impact as the further kind of you go up that chain because if a firefighter were to respond
  • 01:27:11
    they are trained in BLS, ALS, and paramedic and they're also a firefighter so just can you say two more things about sort of like what are the staffing implications do I have it right am I articulating sort of what the end result of that problem could look like yeah council vice president you are exactly right it
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:27:30
    I'll limit it at two.
  • 01:27:32
    There is a domino effect that the CARES was specifically created and implemented to address, again, a very specific need, right?
  • 01:27:44
    So we respond 9-1-1 and we have a fast response, our ALS units respond, a quick assessment
  • 01:27:53
    off to the hospital.
  • 01:27:54
    It's done very quickly.
  • 01:27:56
    And so our BLS units respond, less severity of a call, a little more time assessing, determining if we're going to the hospital.
  • 01:28:08
    And then our CARES team responds.
  • 01:28:13
    Having EMTs on there is intentional, right?
  • 01:28:16
    They can rule out a medical emergency first.
  • 01:28:19
    And so they spend
  • 01:28:21
    a lot more time on scene determining, A, they rule out it's not medical.
  • 01:28:26
    If it is, we're going to transport and get them the care they need.
  • 01:28:30
    If it's not something obviously medical, heart attack, you know, whatever that medical call is, it's a mental health crisis or they need resources.
  • 01:28:40
    We're going to spend a lot more time on scene trying to help and figure that out so they get the resources they need.
  • 01:28:48
    and what we planned is to grow that program even further.
  • 01:28:53
    That was the plan into what's called community paramedicine and that's what's known all over the country.
  • 01:28:58
    That you now shift from that person on scene that spends 30, 40 minutes on scene to really talk to this person to get them the resources they need and you take care of that person and often times what happens
  • 01:29:16
    is the follow up piece.
  • 01:29:20
    We have departments in the city, ONS follows up, or we try to follow up, but the standard is community paramedicine.
  • 01:29:27
    To follow up, and you become the case worker now of that person, right?
  • 01:29:30
    So now you're not only taking care of that need, but you're also following up to making sure they still receive what they need.
  • 01:29:40
    Because if they don't,
  • 01:29:42
    what they know is to call 911.
  • 01:29:44
    That's what they know.
  • 01:29:45
    So it taxes the system and it doesn't get them the help they need.
  • 01:29:53
    Not having CARES, not having the BLS, we're still going to go and we're still going to respond, but we're going to go back to what we were doing in 2018.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:30:06
    Just one additional thought that the paramedicine idea was something that was really interesting to me, especially given the dissolution of the COAST unit, which was a similar service but in police and COAST's
  • 01:30:22
    you know obviously they're still responding to the calls but they're doing it in a different way and so like where does that work fit what makes the most sense and thinking about paramedicine as we think about like full-service schools and other things like that how are we sending our city staff out to be able to assess and address sort of like the growing needs that we have in community but in a very intentional and community-driven way two additional thoughts and then we'll keep you rolling here is the
  • 01:30:50
    Again, just connected to our health care system, parents are making decisions between paying rent or bringing a kid to the dentist right now.
  • 01:30:57
    And so that even just like a simple toothache can escalate really quickly, and who are they calling?
  • 01:31:03
    And so understanding where to access resources in addition to that first response I think is just incredibly important.
  • 01:31:10
    But also to name what an incredible strain on our system and the number of call volume that we're sending our firefighters out on.
  • 01:31:17
    and then just to one note we talked about this last year and I remember asking the question not knowing how spicy it was but sworn strength is sort of it's not an arbitrary number it's certainly like connected to to an equation and I think that in comparison to other metro cities and across the state in comparison to our population size we continue to be severely understaffed for our fire department so sworn strength is certainly sort of
  • 01:31:44
    let's call it the bare minimum but it is based on an equation but it's sort of not an arbitrary number certainly rooted in something but I just want to name this foreign strength isn't the standard it's I would call it base basically a bare minimum minimum for what our department would need to respond to the population size that we have is that a fair sort of articulation of what sworn strength is and isn't
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:32:06
    Council Vice President, it's more than fair.
  • 01:32:10
    It's 100% accurate.
  • 01:32:16
    We are running at a fair minimum.
  • 01:32:18
    And you talk about all the things we already talked about, right?
  • 01:32:22
    We're still going to go on the call.
  • 01:32:23
    It's going to create a gap.
  • 01:32:26
    Our staff is going on thousands and thousands of runs annually and so by creating different resources It's the workloads gonna be there and it's only gonna go up and it's gonna go You know a lot of good things are happening in the city, you know, we're the populations growing housings, you know It's it's really good stuff.
  • 01:32:44
    But the more people you bring in there's gonna be more demand.
  • 01:32:47
    It's just the way it is and so and we're gonna continue to ask more and
  • 01:32:52
    of the people we have.
  • 01:32:54
    I'd love to change their schedule right now, and I'm not surprising anybody when I say that.
  • 01:33:03
    We're working on a four-day cycle of 24-hour shifts.
  • 01:33:06
    Nobody in the country is doing that anymore.
  • 01:33:09
    It's too much for our responders.
  • 01:33:11
    And so we are looking at different shifts, different ways to still provide the service and not beat up our employees.
  • 01:33:20
    But to do that, you need more people to do it.
  • 01:33:23
    And that's a fact.
  • 01:33:25
    And so, yeah, more than accurate.
  • 01:33:30
    You're 100% accurate, 100% right.
  • 01:33:32
    I don't even know where I left off, but let's go with it.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:33:38
    Yeah, I think for this one, I would encourage you to highlight the number of graduates from BLS and then just lifting up how many of those folks are now firefighters.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:33:49
    Yeah, and like I said, it's bigger than even just BLS, our pathways with explorers.
  • 01:33:57
    And by the way, we were state champions last year at the state fair, just in case you were wondering.
  • 01:34:03
    They are moving up, not only in our own department, but some are leaving to go to medical school.
  • 01:34:09
    And it's just creating opportunities in so many different areas.
  • 01:34:11
    Our 2026 proposed changes, old Fire Station 7,
  • 01:34:20
    We're looking at selling that, so that closed the potential gap of $500,000.
  • 01:34:27
    The CARES unit, the budget numbers there.
  • 01:34:28
    EMS Academy is another program that we're looking at reducing.
  • 01:34:35
    It wouldn't go away.
  • 01:34:36
    We'd still have some EMS academies.
  • 01:34:41
    And what that program does is to provide EMT training for a very specific group in our city and our county.
  • 01:34:49
    because we have the BLS division, it has become another pathways into our department.
  • 01:34:55
    We are actively looking at different ways to get that funded.
  • 01:34:59
    I am confident we can find different ways to get that funded.
  • 01:35:04
    And then the BLS night shift, I explained what that would look like if reduced and then the three firefighter reduction that was proposed in 2025 and happening in 2026.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:35:17
    And we've got two questions.
  • 01:35:20
    We'll go Chair Jones first and then Chair Johnson.
• • Saura Jost
  • 01:35:23
    I do have a question about the three firefighters being removed.
  • 01:35:29
    I have a couple of things.
  • 01:35:33
    So from last year, I thought that there were four firefighters in the budget being added that you proposed.
  • 01:35:38
    And then I think we added three more.
  • 01:35:41
    and it was also my understanding the four firefighters that were added in the budget originally were maybe also from the previous year.
  • 01:35:50
    I guess I don't know if anyone remembers that, none of us were here then, but I thought I remember maybe the council president mentioning that.
  • 01:35:58
    And so now the three firefighters are being removed and I guess a couple of my questions are,
  • 01:36:08
    So if there were seven firefighters being added in the 2025 budget, were those filled?
  • 01:36:12
    And then with these three firefighters being removed from the budget for 2026, I guess I'm just a little bit concerned because I thought we added some previously, now we're removing some.
  • 01:36:26
    And then what is the impact of that, the removal of those FDEs on our services?
  • 01:36:31
    I think for me, I really appreciate the heat maps and all the information you provided in the appendix.
  • 01:36:39
    When I'm thinking about my ward, we have all of the concentrations of the heat map are areas where we have seniors.
  • 01:36:47
    And especially with Highland Bridge getting built out, we're going to be adding hopefully 100 or so units of housing here in the next few years.
  • 01:36:56
    Council Member
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:37:11
    To specifically address the questions, were the firefighters filled?
  • 01:37:15
    They were.
  • 01:37:16
    Every FTE we are given, we have filled it.
  • 01:37:18
    And then we try to fill above our authorized strength.
  • 01:37:23
    So yes, they were filled.
  • 01:37:26
    The impact is, where do I start?
  • 01:37:31
    The impact is our daily staffing numbers won't change.
  • 01:37:39
    They won't go down, but they won't go up either.
  • 01:37:43
    We'll have three less people to draw on to fill vacancies, so you'll see some more overtime being used.
  • 01:37:53
    You talk about firefighters being added over time.
  • 01:37:56
    The goal has been to chip away at adding firefighters.
  • 01:38:01
    and the Council, OFS, the Mayor, everyone's on board with that.
  • 01:38:06
    It's expensive to add what you need at one time.
  • 01:38:09
    So we were chipping away at that.
  • 01:38:11
    And so we were able to add a new engine last year.
  • 01:38:13
    Engine 7 went in service.
  • 01:38:15
    That was a milestone, exciting for our department.
  • 01:38:18
    A resource that hadn't been added in 50 years.
  • 01:38:23
    part of how we added that was through the investment from the mayor and from the council but we also had to take some of our super medic rigs to help us staff that as well so we made it work but we made it work with the idea of we would now continue to chip away at getting the supers back in play and so what this does is it sets us back from
  • 01:38:49
    from that process.
  • 01:38:52
    And you're spot on in the island area and the rest of the city.
  • 01:38:56
    The population is growing.
  • 01:38:58
    It's good.
  • 01:38:59
    But the more people you bring in, the more demand there's going to be.
  • 01:39:03
    It's just the way our business works.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:39:10
    Thank you.
  • 01:39:11
    So I really appreciate just kind of getting what I feel like is a glimpse of what
  • 01:39:18
    I think some of the decisions I'm sure were really difficult ones to land on.
  • 01:39:25
    I guess I share that same concern for the heights and on the east side as well.
  • 01:39:30
    If you look at the map between 5, 6, and 7 are fire station members.
  • 01:39:35
    And then also, I think just reviewing response time and places, I kind of hone back to that piece of, OK, can you share again, one, can you remind me of our authorized strength?
  • 01:39:46
    What is our authorized strength?
  • 01:39:47
    And how many current firefighters do we have?
  • 01:39:51
    And I know firefighters applies to a little bit of everybody.
  • 01:39:53
    in this context in the budget, but can you, what is our authorized strength and where are we operating?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:39:58
    Council Vice President, Council Member, so we have a slide, we injected that slide in there for the breakdown, slide 11.
  • 01:40:05
    So our total authorized sworn is 457 and if you include the EMTs and other positions, we are at 524.
  • 01:40:16
    Our sworn, which does not include
  • 01:40:21
    the EMT and our BLS division is currently at 457 and so just if I could is so how we got here is this is my seventh budget proposal and I have been up here talking about reducing postage stamps, cleaning services, gardens,
  • 01:40:51
    We have gone line by line.
  • 01:40:53
    I don't have any more lines.
  • 01:40:55
    So when you're still faced with reduction, this is where you land, because you just don't have any other place to look.
  • 01:41:04
    And so, I don't like this at all.
  • 01:41:08
    I don't speak for the mayor, but I'm confident he doesn't like it either, and I obviously can tell you don't like it.
  • 01:41:16
    We don't want to see this happen, but this is why we're here now.
  • 01:41:20
    I don't have any more post-it stamps to cut.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:41:25
    I think as a, just a follow-up, the context also of sort of what department directors are offering us is that, you know, our understanding is that there is a general target and each department was sort of asked to figure out like where can you make cuts and for some
  • 01:41:42
    We don't love the reduction of rec center hours, right?
  • 01:41:45
    But that's a way to keep staff.
  • 01:41:47
    And what we're hearing from the chief is that there are no hours to cut from.
  • 01:41:51
    There's no paper towel that you're hiding somewhere or secret money.
  • 01:41:56
    It's now we are looking at staff.
  • 01:41:57
    And so I think my follow up question to that is for sort of a city of our size, what's sort of like the national
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:42:05
    I would have to write there's a formula and I reference about but I will publicly say you you would need well over 600 firefighters to for a city of our size and in that equation so and I'll tell you what it would do for us we could change we could change the ships
  • 01:42:31
    with that amount of firefighters.
  • 01:42:33
    The nation is going to either 24 on, 48 off, or 24 on, 72 off.
  • 01:42:40
    And I've traveled, I've intentionally traveled and talked to departments around the country and they still can't believe we're operating on this type of schedule, this four day, 24 hour shift schedule.
  • 01:42:53
    So that would
  • 01:42:54
    I get sent articles all the time, look at this department changing and this department changing.
  • 01:42:59
    But if you read into the details, well they're adding 100 firefighters to make that change.
  • 01:43:05
    of our size and I'll get you the exact equation.
  • 01:43:08
    There's a federal website with the city of our size and there's an equation they use, but it would be over 600 sworn firefighters.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:43:17
    Yeah, I really appreciate that.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:43:18
    A follow-up question from Chair Johnson.
  • 01:43:20
    Thank you.
  • 01:43:21
    Just a quick question.
  • 01:43:22
    So then, how much over time is budgeted annually for the fire department?
  • 01:43:27
    So for 2026, with the anticipation of potentially needing additional overtime because of the firefighter cuts and the BLS cuts and some of the reductions, are you budgeting an increase in overtime expenses next year?
  • 01:43:42
    What do you currently budget for this year?
  • 01:43:45
    And where is the fire department landing?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:43:48
    So Council Vice President, Council Member,
  • 01:43:52
    The easy answer to the first one is no, we are not budgeting more money for overtime.
  • 01:43:57
    This budget does not account for any increase.
  • 01:44:01
    And I think we're, you know, I'd have to get the exact number, but a million, we're budgeting about a million dollars a year in overtime.
  • 01:44:09
    It's not enough, hence why we think about the D-shift or we put measures in place to really limit
  • 01:44:18
    where we can, the amount of overtime we spend while keeping a very minimum number to respond to all the calls.
  • 01:44:26
    It's challenging.
  • 01:44:28
    But hence why we think of, what if we did the D shift?
  • 01:44:34
    Could we save money?
  • 01:44:36
    Could we offer options for employees, some flexibility?
  • 01:44:42
    I say it all the time, where families also serve.
  • 01:44:45
    When you're gone for 24 hours,
  • 01:44:48
    Life does not stop and wait for the responder to come home.
  • 01:44:52
    My wife was here, she'd tell you that.
  • 01:44:54
    So we try to think of ways that can help all of those areas and then save money on overtime as well.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:45:01
    And I guess as a follow-up and something that I will just note.
  • 01:45:05
    So one of the things that I've heard with this budget cycle has been we have been really trying to hone in on the cost of doing business in the city.
  • 01:45:12
    I'm not sure if that's accomplished here when we are essentially cutting firefighters that we may need or services that we may need in exchange for potentially having the flip of that being like we're going to need to respond to the calls.
  • 01:45:27
    We're going to need to have to send units out.
  • 01:45:30
    of the City of St Paul.
  • 01:45:49
    and the City Council.
  • 01:46:07
    I'm not sure, as someone who's not a firefighter, I'm not sure who responds to what, if it's an ALS or a BLS or neither, if it's a fire engine.
  • 01:46:19
    I'm not sure who is the first two in those cases, but from some of the information and just from those conversations that I have had with my firefighters in some of the Eastside stations, hearing from them about how in some cases they are kind of first two.
  • 01:46:34
    Sometimes they beat the police officer cop
  • 01:46:36
    that's responding.
  • 01:46:38
    I think that when we think about the cost of doing business, that step backwards to me, which it feels like a little bit of a step backwards just because I think we've made some progress.
  • 01:46:48
    I know that there's been a lot of communication around just how long it's been since we've put back Station 7 and then also put the firefighters staffing capacity that would most likely at least compensate for.
  • 01:47:03
    having that daily staffing matrix stay the same.
  • 01:47:07
    This doesn't feel like we're calculating the cost of business, because it seems like the cost of business would include those firefighters.
  • 01:47:15
    So I don't know.
  • 01:47:15
    I guess I will say transparently, I'm a little disappointed to see that.
  • 01:47:21
    And in part because I think, I'm not sure if that's, it doesn't sound like you all have had a decrease in call volume.
  • 01:47:28
    Doesn't sound like there has been a decrease in,
  • 01:47:32
    of the City Council.
  • 01:47:52
    and the interest is there and there's all these wonderful things that I would say are kind of create a little bit of a different issue like a little bit of a different issue as far as retention and keeping so I don't know I don't know respectfully I know no one likes it but I also I don't know if I necessarily agree with that direction either yeah council vice president council member
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:48:16
    Yeah, I agree with you.
  • 01:48:19
    I don't want to move in this direction.
  • 01:48:24
    You talk about call volume, it's done nothing but go up in my 31 years.
  • 01:48:31
    It's not going to go down.
  • 01:48:33
    And so, Council Vice President, to your point, the different variables that are coming in now, the demand will increase.
  • 01:48:43
    And so you bring up overtime.
  • 01:48:46
    I brought up our schedule, I don't know, three times already and just their normal work schedule is taxing.
  • 01:48:54
    And by the way, can you do more?
  • 01:48:57
    We don't want to go down that route.
  • 01:48:59
    And so it's, but we're about to ask them to do more.
  • 01:49:05
    We're going to lose some resources and there will be gaps and we do respond to the opioid calls.
  • 01:49:12
    If you call, we're going to come.
  • 01:49:15
    Whatever the call is.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 01:49:17
    Yeah, and I think that's sort of one of the major differences at times from sort of our first responder causes.
  • 01:49:23
    They're not going to be like, are you sure your house is on fire?
  • 01:49:25
    Are you sure this person needs stitches or is having cardiac arrest?
  • 01:49:29
    They will respond to the call and make that assessment.
  • 01:49:32
    And so it's just to say the prioritization of those calls will happen, but they still will be responded to.
  • 01:49:37
    And I think I agree.
  • 01:49:41
    The super medic felt like a really big win, and now we're utilizing staff to have coverage.
  • 01:49:46
    the station 7 is a big win and we certainly have more space but we're still just kind of this like perpetually understaffed and so I think when I when I'm it's interesting to have these two presentations back-to-back because like yes kids will walk into the library in the library hours and yes kids walk into our families walk into our rec centers during rec center hours but our first responders respond to that person no matter where they are in the city
  • 01:50:11
    I think this is definitely heading in the wrong direction
  • 01:50:41
    Chair Jones, and then Chair Buoligle afterwards.
  • 01:50:54
    Thank you.
• • Saura Jost
  • 01:50:55
    Thank you Vice President Kim and thank you Chief.
  • 01:50:58
    I know that these are really, really difficult decisions.
  • 01:51:02
    I just want to, I really appreciate Chair Johnson's comment.
  • 01:51:06
    It's very similar to what I was basically going to say.
  • 01:51:09
    We have a million dollars in overtime.
  • 01:51:12
    We're cutting three firefighters that are $360,000.
  • 01:51:16
    and it sounds like you're concerned about what that will mean for the services that the fire department will be able to provide.
  • 01:51:23
    And if we anticipate that we will have close to or more than $360,000 in additional overtime by the end of 2026, then there's just no way that this honestly makes sense.
  • 01:51:35
    So the only thing that I'm thinking about is I know, I mean,
  • 01:51:41
    We've had several presentations now and I know that a lot has been cut to make it to this budget.
  • 01:51:50
    There have been a lot of cuts.
  • 01:51:52
    This is a cut, we started with a cut, we're cutting more things.
  • 01:51:55
    And I know that our residents are really challenged right now with
  • 01:52:01
    and the City Council.
  • 01:52:16
    that the impact on our residents is significant.
  • 01:52:21
    And so I think we just really need to think about that when we're looking at all of these cuts.
  • 01:52:26
    I think it's starting to feel like it's a little bit much to me, and I just wanted to express that to everybody.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:52:34
    Council Vice President, Council Mayor, I'll just say thank you for saying that.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 01:52:40
    Thank you Vice President and also thank you so much Chief Inks for your honesty.
  • 01:52:45
    I think this is a really challenging conversation that we've all been joining in and I just want to say I don't have a question but I just want to just share my closing thoughts particularly around from Ward 1 and being able to actually do a ride along and visit the stations and
  • 01:53:08
    I truly see this department more than just a department that's rendering aid, but also a job opportunity.
  • 01:53:26
    And I think if we could assess, I would say maybe by far most of the St. Paul residents that come from St. Paul, work in St. Paul,
  • 01:53:38
    have the most majority of that in this department.
  • 01:53:43
    So I definitely see there's a lot of impact not only around just like us being called out or our firefighters being called out in the fatigue they may feel, but also just like the pride that this department has in working for the City of St. Paul and
  • 01:54:02
    also inspiring other people to become firefighters.
  • 01:54:21
    and the City Council.
  • 01:54:36
    where do we need to actually prioritize and how do we ensure the cost of doing business doesn't undermine or compromise us in the long haul.
  • 01:54:48
    So just wanted to share that comment.
  • 01:54:51
    A couple days ago we had a town hall at Rondo Library and I wasn't even thinking of having the firefighters on the agenda.
  • 01:55:04
    and the focus was on our safety specialists, but it meant a lot to see that our firefighters, our CARES team actually has a presence at that Rondo library that we're not just depending on just our safety specialists, our police officers.
  • 01:55:22
    but our Cures team also is part of that enterprise, not only in our libraries but in our rec centers and also across our commercial corridors.
  • 01:55:31
    So I just wanted to highlight that.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 01:55:35
    Council, Vice President, Council Member, thank you for saying that.
  • 01:55:38
    It means a lot.
  • 01:55:42
    Members of our department,
  • 01:55:44
    really you know become part of the community and and care quite frankly so to put it in any other way the other piece is and they're they're not here today but the local 21 the union
  • 01:55:58
    I want to specifically call out that they go above and beyond as well to give back to the community because they care.
  • 01:56:23
    The other piece, you know, when we talk about the impact, you did a visit at station 18 and that specific day, I think an ambulance or BLS call came in and then an ALS call came in and so if the BLS wasn't there,
  • 01:56:42
    that ALS would have went first, creating a gap.
  • 01:56:45
    I mean, that's a prime example of what could happen by not having it.
  • 01:56:49
    So I don't know if you remember that, but that's what happened that day.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 01:56:57
    Chair Johnson.
  • 01:56:58
    Thank you.
  • 01:56:59
    I feel like I potentially think there was an example of that, too, like when I was at
  • 01:57:10
    I was trying to remember, also in my visit, Councilor Rubino, hearing your kind of right or wrong piece.
  • 01:57:15
    I'm like, when have you been out to the one station that we have in Ward 7, Station 24?
  • 01:57:22
    It doesn't have, it has two.
  • 01:57:25
    Committee.
  • 01:57:41
    and the City Council.
  • 01:58:01
    I think that actually truly costs us more in the long run if we do a mathematical equation to me that still just does not make sense.
  • 01:58:18
    and so I am really truly like wanting to hone in on what that cost of business is so we can be transparent to our community because what I hear at budget meetings and our you know we had a city council budget session the first thing when we did the breakout sessions the first thing that community members mentioned to me was public safety that was the first issue that came up in many different ways as like the thing that meant the most to them and we had a small group of Ward 7 residents we had a Ward 6 person that joined us
  • 01:58:43
    we had like you know and the community members are continuing to think about that and so like and I want to be transparent with them about how how much it truly costs you know to uphold the level of integrity and the level of work the level of responsiveness that both our fire department and our police department continue to achieve
  • 01:59:02
    and so at the end of the day, that's where my interest lies.
  • 01:59:07
    I would say, let's say that these are the reductions.
  • 01:59:10
    Let's say that this budget is adopted tomorrow.
  • 01:59:12
    I still think it'll be important and imperative to future conversations in 2026 and for budgeting conversations in 2027 and future cycles to really start to hone in on that cost of business for us and to be transparent with us about
  • 01:59:26
    Committee.
  • 01:59:28
    If we're seeing an increase in response times in certain areas in the city, I'd like to know that sooner than later.
  • 01:59:34
    If we're seeing an uptick in calls overnight that we didn't account for, if we're seeing
  • 01:59:41
    have to continuously rely on resources from our $1 million budgeted and over time that we maybe anticipated but now are being confirmed.
  • 01:59:51
    That real life checkpoint I think is really, really important because it allows for the policymakers and in this case the council, the mayor, to all have conversations about what is the real cost of doing business in our city.
  • 02:00:04
    And I also think it gives us an opportunity on the front end to share with our constituents about
  • 02:00:09
    really this is what it's going to take to get there and I think that so often right they see the tax bill or the property tax number and there's frustration because yes it's like high property taxes and peace is not really understanding what goes into that and especially around our police department and our fire department since that is something that I would argue a lot of people anytime someone calls 911 for any reason they want they want someone to show up and I think that that's a consensus is something that we agree upon
  • 02:00:36
    all across the city.
  • 02:00:37
    That's what our constituents share over and over and over again.
  • 02:00:40
    And I want them to know the real cost of what that means when you pick up the phone.
  • 02:00:45
    And we've had many life or death situations throughout our city.
  • 02:00:49
    We've had tragedies on the east side in particular.
  • 02:00:52
    And we've also had lives saved because of the seconds that it took.
  • 02:00:56
    and so that to me is like really important it's one of the reasons why I am you know supportive of both the police department and the fire department in this regard but it's something that I think we are missing a little bit in our city when it comes to like that real dollar amount and so I just hope that let's just say like these reductions are adopted let's say like I'm just moving into the December with us so bear with me let's say these numbers are proposed as is
  • 02:01:20
    it concerns me to hear some of the potential alternatives than the outcomes because I know that that isn't the step in the direction that I would like to see us go as a city so I really hope we're tracking that and I hope that that can be reported on in some way shape or form next year as to what's actually happening and so I don't know I don't really care how that's done whether it's here in the setting or if that's you know one-offs with council members but I think it would be really helpful to know just what happens you know with it.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:01:47
    Council, Vice President, Council Member, so there's the monetary value, right, what it costs, but there's the other piece of the cost and Council Member Kim, or Vice President Kim, you've said it four times today and you talk and you always mention about the
  • 02:02:08
    It's just the wear and tear on our employees.
  • 02:02:11
    We're seeing increased cancer, increased heart, sleep.
  • 02:02:16
    There's all sorts of illnesses.
  • 02:02:19
    coming forward and our people are still going.
  • 02:02:22
    And so the more you ask of them, the more they're being exposed to these dangers, these toxins, and we're seeing an increased rate of that piece of it.
  • 02:02:32
    So there's a dollar value and I can't put a dollar value on the health of our firefighters.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:02:41
    Yeah, because I think to compound your point, no one wants to hear that the person that's administering CPR to their loved one is on their ninth call.
  • 02:02:50
    of like a similar intensity of that night, right?
  • 02:02:53
    That's probably what is happening right now, but I don't think that it gives confidence that you've been providing an excellent and superior level of service, but running so thin on crews.
  • 02:03:06
    And so my question is really connected to that one, and it's sort of rhetorical, I think, at this point.
  • 02:03:12
    But just even looking at prior year numbers, and this is a follow-up from our budget officer in the department,
  • 02:03:19
    is kind of like, what are the staffing levels historically over the last 10 years?
  • 02:03:24
    Because if I look at even the last few years, we're back to 2023 numbers.
  • 02:03:28
    So I think to Chair Johnson's point, it feels like we're going in the wrong direction in terms of staffing.
  • 02:03:33
    We take two steps forward, and we took kind of an even bigger step back.
  • 02:03:38
    And so my question is sort of related to all of those points, like how does the fire department sustain this level of budget reduction and continue to deliver the same level of service?
  • 02:03:49
    that question has major major implications both on staff and service delivery so a little bit rhetorical feel free to not answer it but if you have an off-the-cuff answer that you'd like to provide you know feel free but I just I can't imagine that running our fire department reg is the solution so I couldn't agree more yeah but I mean if you would like to you like how do we continue to deliver the same level of service while sustaining just continued budget reductions in this department
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:04:17
    Council Vice President, how do we deliver the same level of service?
  • 02:04:26
    We'll deliver the same level, but there will be gaps and there will be delayed response times.
  • 02:04:33
    And we deliver the same level of service because of the 500 members we have.
  • 02:04:38
    That's how.
  • 02:04:39
    And the tones are going to go off and they're still going to run to the rig.
  • 02:04:44
    They're still going to get out quick.
  • 02:04:45
    They're still going to respond quick.
  • 02:04:47
    and they'll put as we do in this profession right we put others before us that's our job that's what we do you know I'm not here for me you know I'm here for we and we are all here for us right for the for the city that's what we do daily and that's what they'll do
  • 02:05:05
    I'm confident of that.
  • 02:05:06
    As your fire chief, I'll stand up here and say we'll deliver the level of service because of the women and men of this department will sacrifice their own health to do it.
  • 02:05:14
    And it will filter to the top of more injuries and more illnesses.
  • 02:05:19
    But we're going to still go on the calls no matter what happens.
  • 02:05:22
    We don't have the word no in our vocabulary.
  • 02:05:26
    I don't even know what the word quit means.
  • 02:05:29
    And that goes for the entire fire department.
  • 02:05:32
    We're still going to go and respond.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:05:34
    and provide, I think, just superior time response times as well.
  • 02:05:38
    Unfortunately, the outcry fire is in Ward 5.
  • 02:05:40
    There is a three minute time differential between the time that the fire alarm went off at the station and the first firefighter was in that building pulling kiddos out.
  • 02:05:49
    And so I'm remiss, even though I feel like you always do such an excellent job, lifting up the east side with
  • 02:05:57
    Our budget chair, Yang, if I look at the east side, I would hope and assure that the response times are good.
  • 02:06:06
    But when I look at the east side, and there's only one fire station in your ward, and I think about how far down that goes, there is impact to services already that we, I think, have to be also very realistic with.
  • 02:06:22
    Right now, there's already just a certain level of service impacts that we're experiencing.
  • 02:06:27
    and yet still manage to provide just a superior level of care to our constituents.
  • 02:06:34
    Any other thoughts on this?
  • 02:06:36
    I think there's only a few more slides and then we can stand for additional questions.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:06:43
    I'll breeze through these.
  • 02:06:45
    These are historical data on our general fund.
  • 02:06:48
    The revenues include EMS revenue, revenue from different contracts we have with different entities and different services we provide.
  • 02:06:59
    Historically, we are in line with that.
  • 02:07:02
    And so the budget spending, again, our general fund grant dollars, we're very
  • 02:07:12
    I'll just say we're good at obtaining grants.
  • 02:07:16
    We apply for anything that's out there and we are fortunate enough to be awarded that and so the 211 General Government Special Projects, that line reflects one of our positions are being funded by I believe opioid dollars.
  • 02:07:38
    and then equipment services, fixing our rigs and working on our rigs at the shop.
  • 02:07:45
    Our FTE summary, I think I'll just go right to slide 11.
  • 02:07:51
    It gives it a better breakdown.
  • 02:07:54
    Councilmember Johnson, this is right before you asked for the other day.
  • 02:07:57
    It can be confusing, but the bottom line is what I look at is the total scorn.
  • 02:08:05
    We're moving from 457 to 453 and that's losing one deputy chief in EMS that's really dedicated to CARES and then three firefighters.
  • 02:08:17
    And then the nine EMT positions that we'll be losing.
  • 02:08:22
    A total of 13 positions that would be reduced.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 02:08:28
    Thank you, VP.
  • 02:08:33
    I told myself this is the only slide I wanted to talk about, I promise you.
  • 02:08:39
    I just have a question around if you can give some context around the reduction of the deputy chief.
  • 02:08:45
    I know we already had talked about the challenge with the 11 firefighters.
  • 02:08:52
    And if you could give some context of not only the impacts of like Reducing a deputy chief is this person going to be?
  • 02:09:00
    Transferred to a different type of position or is this a actual cut layoff our retirement?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:09:07
    Just trying to understand the impact Council vice president council member it is not a layoff it it would be through attrition that position and what that person does is is
  • 02:09:20
    leads the CARES team.
  • 02:09:23
    And so by losing the deputy chief position, the EMS division would be down one supervisor.
  • 02:09:30
    And again, we talk about response and the time of response, response time, the wear and tear.
  • 02:09:41
    The business side of things in an EMS division like we have, it's very extensive, very big and it needs the appropriate supervision to make sure it's running accurately and efficiently.
  • 02:09:53
    The work is still going to be there and it's going to be shifted on top of someone else's daily duties.
  • 02:10:00
    That's the impact of that.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 02:10:03
    and one quick follow-up because I know we've been talking about the CARES team and I just appreciate this breakdown in staffing this is probably like my favorite slide I am just wondering where is the CARES team is that showing up in the firefighters the EMTs like what
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:10:21
    Yeah, Council, Vice President, Council Member, simple answer is yes.
  • 02:10:27
    So the Deputy Chief would be in the sworn area and then the EMTs that are assigned to the CARES would be in the EMT area.
  • 02:10:38
    So there's three EMTs and CARES, that's why you see the reduction of nine.
  • 02:10:43
    The other six are the overnight shift for the DLS response.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 02:10:48
    Okay, thank you.
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:10:54
    I'm very optimistic that it's gonna help
  • 02:11:15
    in the immediate future but it's definitely not the solution to all the problems we have but it's just another way we're trying to think of to reduce over time and provide our daily staffing to at least the bare minimum.
  • 02:11:32
    The other piece we mentioned, our transport, what we charge for transports is it's below, we're the lowest in the region and so
  • 02:11:44
    is the lowest by far.
  • 02:11:47
    So it's an area that I think needs to be looked at and I'm not trying to charge our public more but there is a cost to doing business.
  • 02:11:58
    Councilmember Johnson you mentioned the cost of doing business.
  • 02:12:01
    This is one of them and we are below everybody in the metro area in that area.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:12:09
    Yeah, I'd like to add to that.
  • 02:12:10
    So that was actually going to be my question.
  • 02:12:12
    So as sort of one of the few departments that actually generates substantial revenue for the city that goes back into the general fund, a lot of the revenue that we are getting is from our transportation fees, so like the ambulance.
  • 02:12:25
    And those are usually reimbursed to us by insurance companies, or I don't know, maybe the state, depending on.
  • 02:12:33
    but my question was then what is the difference like from other cities how do we compare in terms of that transportation rate or from from other states what is that if we are significantly less can you just say two more things like what are the costs that other cities charge versus St Paul
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:12:51
    Council Vice President, so put it in perspective, an advanced life support transport in the City of St. Paul, we bill roughly $1,700 for that transport.
  • 02:13:02
    Other agencies in the metro area for that same call bill, $2,300.
  • 02:13:07
    And when it comes to a basic life support transport, we are billing about just under $1,500 for that.
  • 02:13:18
    and the metro area is billing over $1,900.
  • 02:13:22
    So the BLS rate in the metro area is higher than our ALS rate in St. Paul.
  • 02:13:30
    So there's capacity there to at least have conversations around is the cost of doing business?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:13:38
    And who sets those rates?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:13:41
    So we, Council Vice President Yudu, this group does, we propose it, we work with OFS, we work with the mayor, this is something we want to pursue and we have raised them in the past through one of the budget presentations and so it's through this process that they get raised.
  • 02:14:08
    To put it in perspective, if you go line by line, we generally don't have enough money for supplies.
  • 02:14:15
    There's a true cost.
  • 02:14:18
    It's hard to talk about what we do in a business sense because we're here for the public, but it does cost money to run these services.
  • 02:14:28
    When two or three of your line items are losing, there's not enough money to buy the right supplies to go on the call.
  • 02:14:35
    you're going to have to rob money from somewhere else, right?
  • 02:14:38
    So it's just the cost of doing business.
• • Saura Jost
  • 02:14:42
    I saw a question from Chair Jost.
  • 02:14:44
    Thank you, Vice President Kim.
  • 02:14:45
    I just had a quick follow-up, Chief, from that question with those.
  • 02:14:49
    So those are per transport.
  • 02:14:51
    So how many transports per year are we talking?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:14:55
    Council Vice President, Council Member, I knew I was going to be asked that question.
  • 02:15:00
    And I think 31,000 transports annually.
• • Saura Jost
  • 02:15:07
    Is that combined?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:15:09
    Yeah, that's combined BLS and ALA. And we can break that.
  • 02:15:12
    I think we can break that down even further.
  • 02:15:14
    But if you take an average of six,
  • 02:15:19
    If you went up $300 times $31,000, I'm sure someone can give me that number real quick, but it's substantial.
  • 02:15:30
    There's a definite cost to doing business there.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 02:15:38
    Council Member Pollard.
  • 02:15:39
    Thank you, Chair Kim.
  • 02:15:40
    Thank you, Chief Inks.
  • 02:15:42
    This has been illuminating and is all really hard to hear and to think through how we will move forward.
  • 02:15:50
    Just a quick follow-up question to Council Member Jost's, sorry, VP Kim's.
  • 02:15:56
    What was the last year that those prices were raised by the Council?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:16:01
    Council, Vice President, Council Member
  • 02:16:05
    three years ago, two years ago, two years ago.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 02:16:09
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:16:10
    Do you have a follow-up question?
• • Saura Jost
  • 02:16:19
    I guess not a follow-up question, but just a comment.
  • 02:16:22
    I just kind of did do a little bit of quick math.
  • 02:16:24
    And if you were to raise those rates by like 1%, that would be like half a million dollars.
  • 02:16:29
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:16:31
    Look at that.
  • 02:16:36
    It's always great to have an engineer on the Council that's good at math.
  • 02:16:39
    Thank you for that quick fact.
  • 02:16:40
    Any other thoughts or questions for the Chief?
  • 02:16:46
    I feel like there are a lot of highlights here.
  • 02:16:49
    I'm just going to attempt to summarize a couple things.
  • 02:16:51
    The true cost of doing business and whether or not over time is the appropriate response in terms of staffing.
  • 02:16:59
    having correct staffing over, just utilizing over time.
  • 02:17:02
    I think the question of service impacts and the continued reduction of this budget and how does that impact our residents and the services we provide.
  • 02:17:10
    And I heard, I share this concern and I'm very interested in addressing this for this year's budget is the CARES unit.
  • 02:17:19
    I'm looking across all of our healthcare systems and the access to mental health right now.
  • 02:17:24
    and it's one that I personally care a lot about so I'd be very interested in discussing maintaining those numbers in our care unit for those reasons but also recognizing sort of that really, really difficult trickle up effect that it has and the strain on every single staff person that then has to respond to more.
  • 02:17:46
    There was an intentional reason why we created the BLS unit
  • 02:17:49
    and then just adding on to that true cost of doing business and what we heard from the chief is that there is no more cutting to do in this department.
  • 02:17:56
    We are now looking at staff and the last thought is sworn strength is sort of what we make it and we are significantly understaffed for a city of our size and so looking at the true cost of doing business as incremental
  • 02:18:09
    of the City of St. Paul.
  • 02:18:13
    I appreciate the time and the information.
  • 02:18:22
    Any last thoughts or words?
• • SPEAKER_08
  • 02:18:39
    Thank you for having me.
  • 02:18:40
    Thank you for hearing us and allowing us to come in and speak and the questions you asked, you know, it's not easy, but hopefully we provided, you know, this, you know, we don't have any other way to lead, but to be open, honest, and transparent, we presented what it could look like, and so you have a lot of tough decisions to make in the
  • 02:19:03
    I don't think you get the thank yous you deserve because it's not an easy job.
  • 02:19:08
    Every year it's tough and this year it seems like it's even more tougher.
  • 02:19:11
    So thank you for the time and effort that you guys are about to put into this.
  • 02:19:16
    Thank you.
  • 02:19:17
    Always, if I get an opportunity, I just thank the women and men of our fire department.
  • 02:19:22
    I'm super lucky, honored, proud to be the fire chief in the city I grew up in.
  • 02:19:28
    I couldn't ask for anything more than to lead this group, so thank you.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:19:32
    Thank you so much.
  • 02:19:34
    Without the Finance and Budget Committee we'll be in recess until one o'clock.
• • 02:21:58
    St Paul, City Council,
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:22:31
    Good afternoon.
  • 02:22:32
    We are reconvening the Finance and Budget Committee of the City Council.
  • 02:22:39
    Just for the sake of our city clerk, we're going to do a very brief roll call.
  • 02:22:46
    Council Member Bui?
  • 02:22:48
    Here.
  • 02:22:50
    Councilmember Jost, Councilmember Coleman, Councilmember Johnson.
  • 02:22:56
    I am also present, Councilmember Kim present.
  • 02:22:59
    Roll call is completed.
  • 02:23:02
    We're back from recess.
  • 02:23:03
    We've got one additional presentation.
  • 02:23:05
    We so appreciate getting just sort of like the timeliness of this information, the responsiveness from this department.
  • 02:23:13
    I'm going to just offer just a little bit of a preamble since this is sort of a continuation of the conversation from last year.
  • 02:23:19
    of the City Council.
  • 02:23:20
    Similar to what we just heard from our fire department, we have, you know, there's sort of a universal staffing shortages in law enforcement.
  • 02:23:27
    It honestly started a long, long time ago.
  • 02:23:30
    So this is not a new problem necessarily.
  • 02:23:33
    But like many cities across the country, we've relied on over time as a stop gap to cover a lot of our staffing needs, which is what we just heard from our fire department.
  • 02:23:42
    We're really proud that our police department's commitment to community-first public safety and their success in reducing gun violence and at the same time the city has sort of limited revenue tools beyond property taxes, state aid, and of course none of these costs for the department is kept pace with kind of the rising cost of inflation and the cost of doing business.
  • 02:24:01
    So as a council we definitely have a fiduciary responsibility to ask tough questions but necessary questions about how we allocate resources.
  • 02:24:09
    So with that, I invite our Assistant Chief Paul Ford to come and present the overtime presentation.
  • 02:24:17
    And I think one last thought I'll look to Chair Johnson.
  • 02:24:23
    Do you have any additional sort of like preamble questions that you might want to offer at all?
  • 02:24:29
    And it's okay if you don't.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 02:24:31
    of the City Council.
  • 02:24:48
    also the original date on that memo was in August but because of all the things that were happening we were able to allow additional flexibility for our department to be able to get back to us because of the cyber incident in our city and so this is still timely in regards to the communication that we have all received and it's a follow-up from the contingency item that we have on the 2025 budget
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:25:17
    I do think I'm glad we're doing it now I'm sorry that we didn't get to do it back in July when we had intended to do it but I think now with all the budget conversations going on and I appreciate I'm when the chief gave his budget presentation how you guys talked about the importance of understanding the actual cost of doing business and just kind of not doing band-aid fixes year after year I think this is really timely and will be really helpful to you all
  • 02:25:47
    So first I kind of want to talk about the types of overtime that the department has.
  • 02:25:51
    So the first one I'm going to talk about is contractual overtime.
  • 02:25:54
    So that's when you go to Target or you go to the bank and you see a police officer working there.
  • 02:25:59
    And the Chief has talked about this extensively.
  • 02:26:01
    It used to be called off duty employment where I may work in a community and a business might say, hey, I'd like to hire some police officers as off duty security.
  • 02:26:09
    And then I, as that point of contact, would manage that and schedule that and kind of run that operation.
  • 02:26:16
    So Chief Axtell, previous Chief Todd Axtell, he ended that practice and brought that within the department to better manage costs and resources and making sure it was equitable.
  • 02:26:28
    So the one thing that I always like to talk about when I talk about contract overtime, this is work that is very valuable I think to the community.
  • 02:26:35
    It's a force multiplier.
  • 02:26:36
    It puts officers out in the community.
  • 02:26:39
    If I'm working in a contract overtime job at say like Target and I have a shoplifter, I'm going to deal with that there.
  • 02:26:45
    and we're not going to have to call an officer off the street immediately to do that.
  • 02:26:49
    They might have to come later to transport.
  • 02:26:51
    So it gives us more visibility.
  • 02:26:53
    It helps us to alleviate some of the work stresses on the regular shifts.
  • 02:26:58
    And the one thing about contractual overtime that also is really important is that we don't have to do this, we choose to do this.
  • 02:27:04
    So we don't do it for everybody.
  • 02:27:04
    We don't work in bars.
  • 02:27:06
    We never have since I've been here.
  • 02:27:07
    and in the contract overtime agreements.
  • 02:27:11
    If there's a city emergency, we get to pull those people off the contract overtime jobs.
  • 02:27:18
    And these are completely reimbursed.
  • 02:27:20
    They're not part of the general fund budget.
  • 02:27:23
    Special Event Overtime.
  • 02:27:26
    We're also reimbursed for this, so these are our permitted events and our stadium events.
  • 02:27:31
    CHS Field, Xcel Energy, Allianz Field, our community events, the Yacht Club, Music Festival, Grand Ole Days, things like that.
  • 02:27:40
    One thing about Special Event Overtime, those events are planned and organized by our Special Operations Unit.
  • 02:27:48
    This is one of the questions I think Council Member Bui had submitted to me.
  • 02:27:53
    so they use national standards for how we staff those.
  • 02:28:00
    if the general rule is one officer per 500 attendees, two for 250 if there is alcohol served.
  • 02:28:10
    So there's some things that can mitigate those costs for an event.
  • 02:28:13
    If you do some hardened security type things, so if you look at like the Yacht Club Festival or like Grand Old Day and things like that, there are some physical security features in place that help to mitigate the number of officers you would need for that.
  • 02:28:28
    When you get into some of these smaller community events, it's just really hard and not cost effective to do that.
  • 02:28:34
    And also, so the addition of private security, so the Yacht Club is just a good example because it's so big.
  • 02:28:40
    They have some private security and that also helps to mitigate costs for events.
  • 02:28:44
    So adding private security and some physical features can help to mitigate those costs for community groups.
  • 02:28:51
    Then there's department over time.
  • 02:28:52
    This comes out of the general fund.
  • 02:28:55
    this is your
  • 02:29:09
    those are what those expenses are.
  • 02:29:11
    SWAT action, I'll just reiterate about 15 years ago we changed the model of how we do SWAT when we did a SWAT entry, high risk entry to arrest a suspect.
  • 02:29:24
    They used to do the dynamic entry, break down the door and quickly go through the structure and secure it.
  • 02:29:30
    We don't do it like that anymore.
  • 02:29:33
    I just want to say thank you to all of you for being here today.
  • 02:29:44
    We're really proud of the way we do that.
  • 02:29:48
    and then finally we have our non budgeted expenses which also come out of the general fund these are your rallies and protests things that go on at the state capitol or at the governor's mansion when we have to call out mobile field force when we when we have to do dignitary protection for a federal you know pollock the president comes to town or something like that and these are the ones that we that are really difficult to plan for their last minute but fortunately it's not a federal election year so they've gone down this year
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:30:19
    I've got just a really quick question.
  • 02:30:24
    As the preteens of the reimbursable overtime hours, is there ever a time where we don't fill all the necessary, or not all the necessary, but all the requests for contractual overtime?
  • 02:30:37
    Do we ever say no to those?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:30:41
    Yes, Council Vice President, there's times when we have
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:30:46
    of the City Council.
  • 02:31:00
    of the City
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 02:31:17
    Quick question on the difference between contractual overtime and special event overtime.
  • 02:31:21
    So I'm thinking, for example, about events at the St. Thomas Arena.
  • 02:31:26
    Would that be contractual overtime, or is that special event overtime and sort of understanding what constitutes a stadium event would be helpful there?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:31:35
    So the special event over time are events that we're going to do regardless.
  • 02:31:40
    So permitted events, we're closing a street, we're using a park, we're using public facilities, public resources.
  • 02:31:49
    So I guess if
  • 02:31:53
    I'm trying to think of a good way to explain it, where that wouldn't be the case.
  • 02:31:58
    But if I had a carnival in my backyard and I just had a lot of people there, maybe a hundred people or something, and I wasn't closing the street and I wasn't causing a traffic hazard and there was nothing that required me to get a permit, that would be like an event.
  • 02:32:12
    That's probably not a good comparison, but it's the best one I can come up with at the moment.
  • 02:32:17
    but whenever there's a permit or we're using city, we're closing a street, we're using a park, things like that, those are special event over time.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 02:32:26
    Thank you.
  • 02:32:28
    Chair Bowie.
  • 02:32:29
    Thank you Vice President.
  • 02:32:30
    Thank you so much.
  • 02:32:32
    I have a follow-up question around the special events over time and particularly around like the permitted events.
  • 02:32:39
    So can you talk a little bit about like how those shifts are assigned, you know,
  • 02:32:46
    I appreciate the context of some events may have vacancies to where we permitted you know we have officers there but we're not able to fill all those shifts but can you talk about how officers are assigned or if this is like a voluntary process to where
  • 02:33:07
    The event is posted and are officers competing for that?
  • 02:33:13
    Is it seniority?
  • 02:33:14
    What is the procedure around assigning officers, specific officers, to specific events and festivals?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:33:21
    Thank you Councilmember, Vice President Kim.
  • 02:33:24
    So we have an app called Roll Call that we purchased several years ago and officers will the events whether it's contract overtime or special event overtime they get posted on the Roll Call app every month or so and then officers can sign up for as many as they want.
  • 02:33:41
    we recently started assigning them by seniority so it's kind of complicated for me to explain because I don't sign up for any of it so I don't use it personally but so if I'm number one in seniority on the St Paul Police Department and I put in four
  • 02:33:57
    you know set if we run it for seven events I'm gonna probably get every one of those I'm gonna get all those events and probably if I'm number two and seniority number three number four and that's regardless of rank so our most senior person on the department I believe right now is a sergeant so they're gonna get you know whatever they want or whatever they sign up for and then we will run that cycle until all the all the events are filled
  • 02:34:24
    And then I'll just kind of throw in there too about the pay rates.
  • 02:34:28
    We do a flat rate for contractual overtime and special event overtime.
  • 02:34:34
    So if you have a really, really large event with a lot of officers, and it happens to be a lot of newer officers, you're going to collect the same amount of funds.
  • 02:34:46
    But then when you have an event, if you have more commanders or sergeants, it kind of offsets it, it evens out.
  • 02:34:53
    Essentially, it's answer your question.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 02:34:55
    It's seniority and we use the roll call app to do that Sure Johnson, I guess this is a follow-up to that did I just wanna make sure that I heard you, right?
  • 02:35:09
    you sure you said that the rotation starts with like the highest ranked officer who signs up for a
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:35:15
    Seniority, so not rank, seniority, yes.
  • 02:35:19
    So I think the highest, the most senior officer sworn personnel is currently a sergeant.
  • 02:35:25
    I think they were hired in 1993.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:35:28
    So seniorities established by years of service versus rank, is that what I'm hearing?
  • 02:35:32
    Yes.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 02:35:36
    I know I've been talking with the chief about this, particularly around events and festivals and just learning the process and the cost of lending our services to these events and festivals.
  • 02:35:54
    My question particularly is around, so there is an estimate that event organizers receive, but they don't actually get the billing until after.
  • 02:36:06
    so and you mentioned that there is the same flat rate no matter if you get a sergeant if you get six sergeants or you get six new incoming officers can you speak to also is there like a cap around how many officers could be assigned because from my experience of hearing from you know even organizers
  • 02:36:33
    so they aren't the ones to determine how many offices are assigned even if they were to have their own alternative or private security or like volunteer security.
  • 02:36:43
    Can you talk about that flexibility, particularly around ensuring that there's coverage, but not to a point where they may have to pay more and not really know exactly what justifies that?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:36:56
    Sure, yeah.
  • 02:36:58
    So again, it kind of goes back to what I said earlier, Council Member Rui, Council Vice President Kim.
  • 02:37:02
    if they there's some ways you can mitigate you know the need for sworn officers there is some physical security things so if you have something that's like indoors and you know people can't just you know like the state fair is a good example people used to just jump over the fence at the state fair and get in the fair and they beef that up a little bit to ensure that you know they want to make their money at the gate or whatever but having those physical features in place to require less you know individual station around you know an event is one way and then
  • 02:37:31
    There's a formula, and I could get it for you, but our special operations work with all the event organizers.
  • 02:37:38
    They try to help them mitigate the cause as best they can.
  • 02:37:41
    So I remember first year for Yacht Rock, we did that there was quite a bit of back and forth, how there was a lot of pushback from them.
  • 02:37:47
    And they're trying to compare St. Paul to other cities, and we worked with them to come to a place that
  • 02:37:53
    you know
  • 02:38:11
    you know we estimate the billing and when we give them the estimate it always is not to exceed so oftentimes the the bills come in less than than what the estimated cost is but we're really sensitive to that and we're always looking for ways to to help mitigate those expenses thank you thanks thank you just trying to get my head around this flat rate um regardless of officer seniority
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 02:38:42
    and also trying to figure out how to ask this question.
  • 02:38:44
    I think what I'm going to try to get at is what is the difference between the rate that is charged and if our most senior officer were to take that contractual overtime shift, what would be paid out?
  • 02:39:00
    Does that make sense?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:39:01
    I think so.
  • 02:39:03
    Let me work through it with you.
  • 02:39:05
    I think we'll get there.
  • 02:39:07
    If we have a large event and we have an officer with one year on and we have an officer who might have 20 years on, then a commander who might have maybe a ten year commander and a brand new commander and then sergeants kind of all in the same place, we could never give an estimate to any event organizers about what that would be because we give them those well in advance.
  • 02:39:33
    So we don't know who's going to be working.
  • 02:39:35
    This might be an event I sign up for today and it's a month away and I might retire or I might get sick.
  • 02:39:39
    So we just can't do that.
  • 02:39:41
    So we came up with kind of an average rate that would ensure that
  • 02:39:48
    So does that answer your question kind of?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:40:16
    I'm wondering if I can also offer, I think what I'm hearing you attempt to articulate, which is difficult to understand, is that there is a set rate that we are contractually obligated for these
  • 02:40:36
    budget, but there's always a gap potentially or maybe we come under budget, but there's a flat rate that they have to pay regardless of if more senior folks respond to the request and the costs are over, but we never charge more than what that original contract cost is.
  • 02:40:56
    But then also like never under, so the flat rate and the actual cost sometimes
  • 02:41:02
    are variable depending on who actually responds to that overtime request.
  • 02:41:05
    Is that the piece that you're trying to get at?
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 02:41:07
    Yeah, thank you.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:41:08
    I think that that's right.
• • SPEAKER_05
  • 02:41:09
    I think that understanding the flat rate is an average, but the system is designed in order to make it easier for more senior officers paid at a higher rate to be able to fill those shifts.
  • 02:41:18
    And so wondering about that delta there.
  • 02:41:20
    But this is a helpful starting place.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:41:22
    So then is your inquiry around what is the average delta that we have?
  • 02:41:25
    I think so.
  • 02:41:26
    Yeah.
  • 02:41:27
    Yeah, I think that's a really great question.
  • 02:41:28
    I'm very interested in that as well.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:41:30
    The average one, I'm sorry.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:41:31
    The average difference between if more senior officers respond to the contract, over the past, let's say, three years of contracts, what has been the difference between the contractual amount and the actual cost, but specifically looking at the amount that the city eats when we're over cost, over the cost of the estimate?
• • Anika Bowie
  • 02:41:52
    I just want to, this might help to simplify it, if we can know what is the flat rate, because I think it fluctuates.
  • 02:42:00
    Committee.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:42:12
    Yeah, I think that would in terms of like, yes.
  • 02:42:18
    So what I'm hearing is just a general understanding of what that hourly wage, depending on rank, could look like.
  • 02:42:25
    And then to get to the larger question of what is the difference between actual and estimated costs, and especially when we're footing the extra part of that bill.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:42:37
    So Council Vice President Kim, Council Member Bui, the current contract overtime rate and special event overtime rate that we bill is $126 an hour.
  • 02:42:49
    So that'll answer part of your question.
  • 02:42:51
    I don't know that we've actually
  • 02:42:55
    Chair,
  • 02:43:12
    I appreciate it.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:43:16
    Yeah, so that is the request, and if sort of like a soft pivot or a different number needs to be populated, that's fine.
  • 02:43:22
    But just be clear that the ask is to see what the difference is between the estimated and the actual, and particularly when we are over.
  • 02:43:28
    But it sounds like we're not, which is good.
  • 02:43:30
    But having the historical data would be good.
  • 02:43:32
    Any follow-up questions on this one?
  • 02:43:35
    Yes?
  • 02:43:36
    Could you repeat the flat rate number again?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:43:37
    126.
  • 02:43:38
    126.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 02:43:39
    That's what I thought you said.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:43:44
    and we usually adjust that with every year with the contract and the salaries go up too.
  • 02:43:49
    So on this slide this talks about our types of overtime that we just discussed breaking it down by cost so for our reimbursed overtime
  • 02:44:07
    In 2024, 61% of our overtime was reimbursed.
  • 02:44:11
    So that's going to be your special events, your contract overtime, things like that.
  • 02:44:18
    The orange category is city administered funding overtime, so that's going to be like the opioid settlement type money that we get.
  • 02:44:28
    and then the next category is going to be the green one 33% in 2024 was from our general fund so that's that's the one that I get nervous about when I'm watching the budget because we were working really hard to try to keep those costs down and then in 2024 4% was non-budgeted expenses so as you all know that was an election year and we had a lot of visitors and so those are your dignitary visits your mobile field force
  • 02:44:58
    events.
  • 02:45:00
    We got a mutual aid request from Minneapolis when their officer was killed in line of duty, so we went over and assisted them as well.
  • 02:45:07
    And you can kind of see if you look at the next diagram to the right how those costs have changed.
  • 02:45:13
    So the non-budgeted expenses, again it's not an election year, have gone down.
  • 02:45:18
    The police general fund, excuse me, overtime has gone down slightly by about from 33 to 27%.
  • 02:45:27
    The chief talked about that in his overtime presentation.
  • 02:45:31
    So again, we've worked really hard at trying to push down those costs and our commanders have really picked up the slack and worked really hard to do that.
  • 02:45:42
    and then as you can see the reimbursed overtime has gone up and a lot of that has to do with the cost of the contracts had gone up and some increased billing for some events like the State Fair.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:45:55
    Cool.
  • 02:45:55
    I've got a question from Chair Johnson.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 02:45:58
    Yes, I have a couple.
  • 02:45:59
    One nod, one important note that I think it would be really great.
  • 02:46:05
    I didn't get a chance to send this over ahead because we received the presentation slides today.
  • 02:46:09
    But had we been probably able to receive them on Monday or a couple of days before, we would have been able to give this to you.
  • 02:46:16
    But for all of the slides that have the pie chart,
  • 02:46:20
    I'd love to see the numbers that actually are affiliated with them.
  • 02:46:23
    The dollar amounts, the percentages are great, but they don't really tell me much.
  • 02:46:29
    And I know the next slide will get into some of the dollar breakdown pieces, but for all of the future slides as well, every pie chart, it would be great to see the
  • 02:46:42
    actual numbers the totals just because I can't really I am assuming that as you go through them they'll probably be more context so I was like all the way through the presentation but I just wanted to note that because the percentages don't share much and I think that it would be also helpful at the same time to know what was budgeted that year and what was actually spent
  • 02:47:06
    So like for 2024, what was budgeted that year versus what was spent.
  • 02:47:10
    In 2025, what was budgeted that year versus what was spent in all those scenarios, including what we budgeted for.
  • 02:47:16
    I reimbursed over time, so if we're doing well, if we're seeing those numbers go back,
  • 02:47:21
    I think of the special events, 2024 numbers special events and 2025 numbers for special events.
  • 02:47:27
    I think we're starting to see some perks and just more people wanting to have events here in our city and therefore needing to be able to have, kind of adding to this budget item, which is helpful.
  • 02:47:40
    Getting the reimbursements for the services is really helpful.
  • 02:47:43
    and I think just being able to see those numbers is helpful because to me this is a pie chart with percentages but it doesn't share much and I don't think captures much of the numbers that are given.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:47:56
    Yes Council Member Johnson, Vice President, we can get that for you.
  • 02:48:03
    Okay, so this is a...
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:48:06
    Sorry to interrupt.
  • 02:48:08
    Chair Jones has a question and I
• • Saura Jost
  • 02:48:13
    Chief Ford, for this chart of overtime, are these percentages in dollars or in hours?
  • 02:48:25
    Dollars.
  • 02:48:26
    Okay, that's what I thought.
  • 02:48:27
    I just wanted to make sure.
  • 02:48:28
    Thank you.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:48:32
    Okay, this is the types of overtime that we have broken down a little bit differently.
  • 02:48:43
    So it compares 2025 to 2024.
  • 02:48:46
    If you look in the box, that reflects the general fund.
  • 02:48:50
    And then the first column right after the green line, that is also the general fund, but those are reimbursed expenses.
  • 02:48:59
    So you can look at the general fund because this is where I get nervous.
  • 02:49:05
    So we have court standby, court and standby, so one officer should go to court, they have to go to court standby, they get paid just for waiting to go to court.
  • 02:49:14
    Homicide, major crimes, call outs, so that's going to be the investigators along with our forensic services unit, CCTV folks, when we have a homicide or another major type of crime.
  • 02:49:26
    Staff shortage is the biggie, but staff shortage is also one where we've gone down
  • 02:49:31
    in 2020-25 quite a bit due to the strategies that our patrol district chiefs have implemented along with a lot of our different units that work on shift schedules.
  • 02:49:43
    So that's where our biggest expense is for general fund overtime, and that's where we've been able to make a decent impact.
  • 02:49:50
    And again, with the decrease in violent crime, that does also impact homicide and major crimes over time.
  • 02:49:58
    Late call.
  • 02:50:00
    again that's gone down slightly something we can't control we can't control what happens if if someone has to stay over you just can't turn over a scene to somebody else
  • 02:50:08
    holiday pay.
  • 02:50:10
    That's just the cost of doing business on a holiday.
  • 02:50:13
    That's a contractual expense.
  • 02:50:15
    Callback is another one that I've worked really hard to make sure that we manage our callback.
  • 02:50:22
    Do we need to call contractually with the St Paul Police Federation?
  • 02:50:25
    There's a callback clause where if you are called back into work, you get automatic four hours of pay.
  • 02:50:34
    and we worked really hard to mitigate that rather than call people back to work as their resources for people that are already here we can use or someone coming in rather than calling somebody back because I mean quite honestly who wants to get called into work on their day off or their time off.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:50:49
    And then just a point of clarification then so for the call back it's an out of four hours of pay is it overtime or regular then if they're called back in?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:50:56
    That's overtime, time and a half.
  • 02:51:02
    and then our SWAT billing or SWAT overtime has gone up.
  • 02:51:05
    We just use them a lot more than we have in the past and it's proven to be much safer for everyone in our community doing that.
  • 02:51:15
    And then the special event billing, that's again, that's through the first of the year.
  • 02:51:21
    A billing, excuse me, that's special event overtime.
  • 02:51:25
    Then we get into the next column is billing of businesses.
  • 02:51:27
    That's our contractual overtime.
  • 02:51:29
    We are reimbursed for that.
  • 02:51:31
    CHS field, we cut that one out because it's a little different contract than all the others.
  • 02:51:40
    It's a very long term contract that we probably should amend at some point.
  • 02:51:46
    Billing grants, so this is like our J grants, our TZD, toward zero death traffic grants, auto theft grant, things that we bill for and we get reimbursed for from other governmental entities or grant providers.
  • 02:52:01
    Billing Task Force officers.
  • 02:52:04
    So we have officers assigned to various task forces that when they work overtime that gets reimbursed by the task force.
  • 02:52:12
    Others are going to be professional staff and maybe parking enforcement.
  • 02:52:17
    Smaller categories that don't have a big impact or isn't a significant expense.
  • 02:52:25
    And then we have the mobile field force and dignitary protection.
  • 02:52:29
    and then Public Safety 8 is the last one and that's our non-fatal shooting unit.
  • 02:52:34
    And again, these are all reimbursed.
  • 02:52:36
    The Public Safety 8 for the non-fatal shooting unit, which I'm going to toot our horn again, has been extremely successful in increasing the clearance rate from high 20% to about 70% and has made a huge factor in reducing our violent crime.
  • 02:52:51
    That will expire at the end of 2026.
  • 02:52:53
    It's a program that we're not going to let go.
  • 02:52:57
    It's been successful, so.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:52:59
    I've got a question about how then overtime hours are earned in terms of shifts.
  • 02:53:09
    So I can see the types and I appreciate that.
  • 02:53:11
    So my understanding is that officers earn overtime after an eight hour shift versus another threshold.
  • 02:53:19
    Is that incorrect?
  • 02:53:20
    Can you kind of tell us through,
  • 02:53:22
    how that's broken down and when folks might start running over time because I think that was a misunderstanding from last year.
  • 02:53:29
    And so can you just clarify for us how that happens?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:53:35
    Yeah, thank you, Council President Kim.
  • 02:53:36
    So we run three shifts in the police department.
  • 02:53:39
    It's contractual.
  • 02:53:40
    We have an eight-hour shift, we have a nine-hour shift, and we have a ten-hour shift.
  • 02:53:45
    So, historically studies have shown that you kind of get the best bang for your buck for our patrol officers, the cops in the squad cars responding to 911 calls to have a 10 hour shift.
  • 02:53:56
    You can't have a shift end and start at the same time because then you're going to have a gap.
  • 02:54:01
    So, for folks on a 10 hour shift, they don't earn overtime until they go beyond 10 hours.
  • 02:54:08
    A lot of our investigative units are on a nine hour shift.
  • 02:54:13
    So we find that it's really important to, people work all different schedules, right?
  • 02:54:18
    And it's really important to make sure that we can catch our victims or witnesses early in the morning and late at night.
  • 02:54:23
    So we work really hard to try to make sure that we have investigators available from seven to about five.
  • 02:54:29
    It's not the exact same in every unit, it varies by need.
  • 02:54:33
    So those folks are on a nine hour shift so it gives us longer coverage during the days.
  • 02:54:39
    And so individuals on that schedule, they will not earn overtime until they go beyond their nine hour shift.
  • 02:54:45
    And then there's individuals like me, I'm on an eight hour shift.
  • 02:54:47
    I mean, technically I'm not hourly, but a lot of our commanders, they're on eight hour shifts.
  • 02:54:54
    And a lot of our units are professional staff.
  • 02:54:56
    They're on eight hour shifts.
  • 02:54:58
    So they won't earn any overtime until they go beyond the eight hours.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:55:02
    OK. And this was my understanding from last year as well, so I appreciate this.
  • 02:55:05
    But then it sounds like.
  • 02:55:07
    that overtime is earned can be earned on almost a shift by shift basis.
  • 02:55:13
    So instead of like the way that I would think about overtime applying after a 40 hour work week, that's when you start earning overtime.
  • 02:55:21
    But what I'm hearing you say is that you could work, it's any hour you spend or any amount of time you spend working longer than your contractual shift, you start to earn overtime.
  • 02:55:34
    That is correct.
  • 02:55:36
    and then to name the reasoning it's to ensure coverage over shift changes.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:55:41
    I'm sorry?
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:55:42
    Can you say why, why might besides maybe you know finishing out your last call or can you give some reasons why
  • 02:55:52
    What sort of calls or things folks might be doing to start to improve the per shift over time?
  • 02:55:59
    Is it to cover shift change or what does that come from?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:56:03
    It could be a whole host of things.
  • 02:56:05
    So there could be a staff shortage on patrol.
  • 02:56:07
    So as the Chief spoke about during his presentation, we have minimum, we've established minimums in our patrol districts.
  • 02:56:16
    So rather than, so if I'm say I'm working the day shift, I work seven to five, 10 hour patrol shift.
  • 02:56:22
    and say they're short an officer on the afternoon shift and they start at four o'clock, they work till two in the morning, rather than call in another body to work a whole or partial shift, I can hold over myself a day timer to maybe just work
  • 02:56:40
    up two or three hours to cover the busiest time of the day.
  • 02:56:43
    And I'll have a slide that talks a little bit about that.
  • 02:56:47
    But then at 10 o'clock, the overnight shift or the midnight shift comes in.
  • 02:56:51
    So it makes no sense to pay somebody to come in at 4 o'clock and stay for a full 10-hour shift if the call load isn't there and then if we have someone coming in at 10.
  • 02:57:00
    So we try to manage it that way.
  • 02:57:04
    and the same can go for any of the units.
  • 02:57:06
    So let's say I'm a homicide investigator and you know we arrest one of our suspects at like three o'clock and I'm done at four o'clock and we get him in the interview room and he's talking.
  • 02:57:16
    We're not going to stop the interview you know when it's time to punch out you know once you get a suspect talking you're going to stick with it and same thing.
  • 02:57:24
    You know another good example is you know with crime victims as well it's the same type of deal when you make a connection with that crime victim whether you're the investigator or a patrol officer
  • 02:57:33
    and they're on a roll and they're talking.
  • 02:57:35
    You just want to keep them talking and just to shut them down is, for one, it's disrespectful.
  • 02:57:39
    I mean, God, if someone's pouring their heart out to you about a traumatic experience, but it helps us help them get them the justice they deserve.
  • 02:57:47
    So those are just a couple of examples.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 02:57:49
    I appreciate that.
  • 02:57:49
    I have one clarifying question and then we'll go to Chair Buie.
  • 02:57:53
    Is that sort of a department policy?
  • 02:57:57
    Is that in your
  • 02:57:58
    Thank you so much, Vice President Kim.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 02:58:11
    Thank you so much again, Assistant Chief, particularly around
  • 02:58:23
    learning about how overtime works, particularly at a cost-based analysis.
  • 02:58:30
    I wasn't aware that it was a shift-by-shift.
  • 02:58:32
    I was under the impression, like you shared, Vice President Kim, of thinking of overtime as 40 hours, and once you go over, you start accruing that overtime.
  • 02:58:42
    I can definitely see how shift-by-shift that you could easily go into overtime.
  • 02:58:48
    I just think about our line of work.
  • 02:58:51
    We easily can go.
  • 02:58:53
    into overtime if we had that type of pay structure.
  • 02:58:58
    I'm just really curious, particularly around who makes the call around granting overtime.
  • 02:59:06
    Because some of your examples, which sincerely I can see, right?
  • 02:59:12
    If you're at a call or investigating, you could just innocently naturally go over that time.
  • 02:59:22
    in terms of like a supervisor, a sergeant, what is that management of like okay you are granted more time or you know we're going to switch you out for the day?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 02:59:33
    Thank you Councilmember Huey, Councilmember Kim, that's a great question.
  • 02:59:39
    So in the contract it talks about fair and equitable distribution of overtime so we work really hard to do that.
  • 02:59:48
    Our homicide unit, our non-fatal shooting unit, and our sexual violence unit, they have on-call investigators and they're on a rotation because you can't be on-call and available all the time.
  • 03:00:00
    It's just physically.
  • 03:00:01
    You can't do that to people.
  • 03:00:03
    So a lot of in those units it's distributed that way based on who's on-call to ensure that
  • 03:00:10
    No one individual is bearing more of the workload.
  • 03:00:13
    Sometimes, knock on wood, if you have one of those types of crimes that you have a couple in a week and you might pick up one or two cases during that week so you might get a little, you might have a little more over time or a lot of times the unit commander will say, you have two cases, you've got two hot cases that you've got to work, we're going to bring in somebody else.
  • 03:00:35
    So in the investigative units, it's that way.
  • 03:00:37
    So in our gang unit, in our special investigations unit, our special enforcement group, the folks that go out and support those investigations by doing the surveillance and the other types of work, a lot of times for that, it's kind of a who's available deal.
  • 03:00:56
    It's important to give people their time off and to ask more of one than the other.
  • 03:01:00
    You can't do that.
  • 03:01:03
    You don't want to burn people out, but a lot of it is who's available and it kind of balances out.
  • 03:01:08
    The commanders do a really good job ensuring that everyone gets equal opportunities for overtime.
  • 03:01:14
    When you go into patrol,
  • 03:01:16
    If I'm the patrol officer working and I'm supposed to get off at 4 and I pick up the car accident at 3.30, it's my call.
  • 03:01:25
    I'm going to stay out on it until I'm done.
  • 03:01:28
    The sergeant isn't going to reassign that.
  • 03:01:30
    Once you're there and you're involved and you're engaged with the people, I mean, you own it and our cops take ownership of that stuff.
  • 03:01:39
    that's why we're so good at what we do but you're just not going to say up four o'clock you got to go home and I'm going to bring in a brand new person who knows absolutely nothing about this call and you know half the victims have been transferred to the hospital half the witnesses have gone home you just you just can't do that for the continuity of the case.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 03:01:59
    I just want to clarify.
  • 03:02:00
    So it sounds like different units have different people.
  • 03:02:08
    But you said in the general, as far as the scoring officers, the sergeant who makes the call.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:02:14
    Yeah.
  • 03:02:16
    In the investigative unit, it's going to be the commander.
  • 03:02:18
    They're going to establish the on-call schedule.
  • 03:02:20
    So everyone kind of knows several months out who's on call.
  • 03:02:24
    I'm on call on the 4th of July.
  • 03:02:26
    I don't have the holiday this year.
  • 03:02:28
    But we want to give them some certainty, but for patrol, it's a little different.
  • 03:02:33
    And our officers, I think, are really good about taking care of each other.
  • 03:02:36
    If they know, if today is, what's today, Wednesday?
• • Saura Jost
  • 03:02:40
    Today's Wednesday?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:02:41
    So if today is my, they work on a rotating day off.
  • 03:02:44
    So patrol officers, we have seven letter days off.
  • 03:02:47
    You can have one of seven different types of day off schedules.
  • 03:02:51
    So if they know that today is my Friday and I'm going into a four day weekend, which is Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
  • 03:02:56
    More likely than not, someone else is going to grab that late call so that I can go home.
  • 03:03:01
    If they know I'm going out of town or things like that, they take care of each other that way too.
• • Saura Jost
  • 03:03:06
    Thank you.
  • 03:03:09
    I just have one comment about that discussion, and I have another separate question.
  • 03:03:16
    I think the shift by shift over time, especially for patrol officers, really makes sense to me.
  • 03:03:22
    Because if I'm working my other job as an engineer, and say I do four nine-hour days, I could work four hours the next day.
  • 03:03:33
    and there's not an impact to the service, assuming there's not an impact to the services we're providing, but you wouldn't do that in this type of work.
  • 03:03:39
    So I think shift by shift makes sense because you're not going to reduce your hours to be at 40 hours.
  • 03:03:46
    You would still work the full shift later.
  • 03:03:48
    So whether it's shift by shift or not, knowing you're going to still feel that all of those shifts and any overtime doesn't seem to make sense to adjust it.
  • 03:04:00
    It seems an easier way to track time.
  • 03:04:02
    I was also thinking, depending on the increment in which you track your time, it might be more accurate that way to do it on a shift-by-shift basis, potentially.
  • 03:04:10
    So that's my comment.
  • 03:04:12
    And then my other question, just when we're looking at these slides and the dollar values, especially for the general fund, is this basically all of the overtime, the dollar amount for all of the overtime hours,
  • 03:04:27
    No matter where the source in the general fund is, so whether it's the, I know we budget for overtime in our budget.
  • 03:04:35
    And then it's also my understanding that some of the, I know there's a slide later about this, but some of the unfilled or the vacant sworn FTEs, that some of that funding is used to cover the costs of these.
  • 03:04:49
    And so I'm just particularly wanting to make sure that even if the source were to come from those FTEs, for example, that are not filled, that that's still captured in the numbers in front of us.
  • 03:05:00
    Is that correct?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:05:04
    this slide represents all the overtime for the first six months of the year the green box is the general fund as far as the vacancies and attrition
  • 03:05:14
    So this might be an OFS conversation.
  • 03:05:18
    I see the OFS team over there.
  • 03:05:21
    We don't necessarily get the attrition.
  • 03:05:24
    I'm probably butchering this because this is bookkeeper talk, which I'm not.
  • 03:05:31
    But we don't get that in our budget, the vacancies, but they use that at the end of the year to balance our books at the end.
  • 03:05:42
    I'm just seeing nods from our OFS folks.
• • Saura Jost
  • 03:05:45
    So Vice President Kim, Chief Ford, so then that seems that the actual total amount of money spent on overtime might not be captured in these numbers if some of the vacancies or attrition is used to balance the budget for overspending from overtime at the end of the year.
  • 03:06:02
    Is that correct?
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:06:05
    I think so.
  • 03:06:06
    That's getting really into the weeds on accounting practices that I'm probably not prepared to
• • Saura Jost
  • 03:06:17
    The reason that's necessary is because if we had 50 FTEs that weren't filled and that amounts to several million dollars, maybe five million dollars, that's just a significant amount of money.
  • 03:06:33
    And I recall hearing last year, I don't know if it was Chief Henry that said this, and I don't know if it was all types of overtime or
  • 03:06:42
    just departmental overtime, but that there was $650,000 a month in overtime.
  • 03:06:48
    And so that's more than the numbers in front of us.
  • 03:06:51
    And I guess when we were talking with the fire department and wanting to understand just the cost of running the city, especially when we're talking to our residents about why we're increasing property taxes by a certain amount every year.
  • 03:07:03
    We just want to make sure we're getting an understanding of the total cost to provide the services that our residents expect and what they're getting.
  • 03:07:10
    Because they are getting these services from you.
  • 03:07:12
    from the department which is so important and just understanding that cost is important to us.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:07:19
    I think the note that I had written down was that often, but not always, you account for overtime by using funds from vacant positions rather than budgeting directly for actual overtime costs.
  • 03:07:33
    Is that true, false?
  • 03:07:37
    I can phrase that into a question as well, but it's basically getting at what Chair Jones is asking, is that you supplement vacancy savings in order to provide overtime
  • 03:07:48
    Committee.
  • 03:07:55
    the true cost of overtime may be getting lost in the accounting unit question.
  • 03:08:01
    So I think that's the question that we're after is how is overtime accounted for in terms of actual costs if we're not able to track it?
  • 03:08:13
    If it's getting lost in the accounting line mix?
  • 03:08:18
    Yeah, by source.
  • 03:08:20
    Yeah, please.
  • 03:08:20
    Hello.
  • 03:08:22
    Welcome.
• • SPEAKER_04
  • 03:08:23
    Council Vice President, Council Members.
  • 03:08:25
    What you're seeing here is actuals and not budget.
  • 03:08:29
    So there is another sort of side of this equation of comparing budget to actuals.
  • 03:08:33
    And then this is specifically just over time, so it doesn't reflect attrition or vacancy savings.
  • 03:08:40
    So those are other aspects of that equation that are not part of the numbers that you see here.
  • 03:08:45
    and I think in regards to whether vacancies are used for overtime, I would say that they supplement the overtime budget and I mean some of the reason the overtime is necessary is because there are the vacancies so they go hand in hand.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:09:02
    Yeah, but I think naming the maybe specific question that we're after then is when we see that reported as an overtime cost, the amount that we're pulling from staffing to support overtime, do we see it as an overtime cost or do we see that still as just like staffing cost?
  • 03:09:22
    How do we track that number as it transfers over into overtime?
• • SPEAKER_04
  • 03:09:26
    Council Vice President, I believe that would show as just like staff shortage over time here.
  • 03:09:34
    But I think we want to confirm with the police accountants.
  • 03:09:38
    OK, that sounds good.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:09:40
    I hope that question makes sense and then you can help us formulate it into a question that makes sense for the budget folks.
  • 03:09:45
    Thank you so much.
  • 03:09:48
    Chair Johnson, and we've got 12 minutes until HRA, so after this question I think we'll let the Assistant Chief finish the slides and then I have questions at the end.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 03:09:58
    So can we just get clarity again on the months captured here?
  • 03:10:01
    Is this just the first six months of the year?
  • 03:10:04
    So just from January to June.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:10:08
    Council Member Johnson, Vice President Kim, yes that's correct.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 03:10:12
    Okay and then so I just want to make sure that that's a clarifying question that's clarified here as well because this isn't the full the full projections for 2024 and I think the math tracks for the 650 000 per month that's there if you include everything and I think that's where like I just reiterate I think it would be really helpful to have what we've budgeted for that like so this is great to have the actuals here of just like what is happening year to date
  • 03:10:40
    I don't know how that translates to what we planned to spend.
  • 03:10:46
    And I think that a part of the huge driving of this conversation is because it appears to us that when we see what we spent versus what we've budgeted for, there often is a multimillion-dollar gap somewhere in there.
  • 03:11:00
    and so it would be very helpful to understand that piece because I think that's what sparked some of the conversations last year Chief and I think being able to have that clarity and also to be able to plan in the future, that's going to be really helpful.
  • 03:11:15
    The other piece I'm still trying to, I guess I'm trying to differentiate those from the general fund to the ones that are not in the general fund in the context of like
  • 03:11:26
    is everything to the right, outside of the green box, reimbursable?
  • 03:11:39
    would that include the special events and negate any delta that we have?
  • 03:11:46
    I know there's been questions around the special events.
  • 03:11:48
    It's presuming that everything here is reimbursed.
  • 03:11:52
    So the multiple millions that are captured outside the green box are all reimbursable up until this point.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:11:58
    Councilmember Johnson, Vice President Kim, you got it.
  • 03:12:01
    Everything in the green box is general fund budget overtime.
  • 03:12:07
    It's not reimbursed.
  • 03:12:09
    Everything outside the green box is reimbursed.
  • 03:12:14
    The only outlier is the one that's billing special events.
  • 03:12:18
    That's part of the general fund.
  • 03:12:20
    But it is reimbursed.
  • 03:12:22
    So maybe I should have made that box a different color.
• • Cheniqua Johnson
  • 03:12:26
    Okay, so it's it's reimbursed and that's one-to-one so everything for special events and things like that has been reimbursed so far Correct outside the gate.
  • 03:12:39
    Thank you
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:12:45
    All right, we'll let you go in a row to get through the slides and then I'll buzz through these next ones.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:12:51
    Mr. President Kim, here's just kind of a different breakdown of the general fund over time year to date for 2025.
  • 03:12:58
    As you can see, staff shortage is always the biggest.
  • 03:13:02
    All others, so many categories that it's up there.
  • 03:13:06
    And then you get down to SWAT and then the homicide and major crimes type call outs.
  • 03:13:13
    This is just kind of a recap of our staffing.
  • 03:13:17
    We're authorized for 619 currently.
  • 03:13:20
    The budget proposal for 2026 will take us down to 619, which doesn't account for the new units that have been created since we were at 619, like Special Operations Unit, the Aspire Unit, the Non-Fatal Shooting Unit, and others.
  • 03:13:37
    The threshold for staffing shortage is, once it gets beyond 8 or 9%,
  • 03:13:43
    It tends to cost more money.
  • 03:13:46
    Here's a kind of an outline of what our schedules look like that we were talking about earlier.
  • 03:13:53
    I didn't know that this slide would be useful until we had the conversation earlier.
  • 03:13:58
    So if you look at tour one, that starts at seven in the morning and it goes until five PM.
  • 03:14:04
    It's in military time, I apologize.
  • 03:14:06
    And then we have an early start
  • 03:14:09
    Afternoon shift, tour two, that starts at two.
  • 03:14:11
    So this was a project I actually worked on in about 2019 or 2017 maybe.
  • 03:14:18
    When I was a new commander, we found that there was a significant increase in calls from about 2 to 6 p.m. and that was where we had some gap in coverage and it was costing us some overtime.
  • 03:14:30
    We weren't dealing with the overtime and staffing issues we were back then today, but this shift was created to kind of cover that gap.
  • 03:14:37
    and then you see 1602 that's 4 to 2 in the morning that's the afternoon shift and again that's really our busiest time of the day in my opinion and I think the numbers will back that up for parts of that shift and then the overnight shift is 10 p.m. to 8 in the morning and once you get to about 3 in the morning things slow down significantly so we can taper that off on the end.
  • 03:15:03
    And then one of the questions that was asked was average hours by rank.
  • 03:15:09
    So for the overtime hours that we spend, 61% in the green there is for police officers, which makes total sense.
  • 03:15:20
    That's our largest rank of staff.
  • 03:15:24
    and when you go to an Excel event or a stadium event, you don't need four commanders there.
  • 03:15:30
    You don't need six commanders and ten sergeants.
  • 03:15:33
    You need cops directing traffic and things like that.
  • 03:15:36
    And because there's more of them, they sign up for more of the contract over time as well.
  • 03:15:42
    Sergeants take up about 29%.
  • 03:15:44
    Commanders take up about nine percent and then one percent would be our professional staff and again for commanders It's always these large-scale events where you have an operations plan and an incident commander And you have you know like Grand Ole for an example you're gonna have an incident commander, and you're gonna have Grand Avenue blocked off into sections managed by different sergeants to deal with that
  • 03:16:06
    and then there were some questions if I may, Council President, that were submitted that I want to answer from Commander, excuse me, Council Member Bowie.
  • 03:16:14
    I apologize, you just got promoted from Commander, but I'd like to address those real quick and they're not on the slides.
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:16:20
    That sounds good.
  • 03:16:21
    I just will note that HRA is a very prompt start at two o'clock and I would like to give maybe
  • 03:16:26
    and City Council.
  • 03:16:47
    I think we would give you time to ask your question live because there are written questions that were submitted so maybe let's do that if folks are okay with that to give a little just a tiny bit of a break.
• • Anika Bowie
  • 03:17:01
    Sure yeah my follow-up question is in regard to the events and festivals and I have emailed the chief that I believe you have all those questions particularly one of the things last year that we
  • 03:17:12
    I'm putting in the budget for events and festivals and we want to help bolster our free and open to the public events and festivals and so one of the things that I wanted to examine as we're looking at those investments is what percentage of
  • 03:17:28
    the special events and festivals are actually free and open to the public like some of those grassroots organizations and particularly in a follow-up question from Chair Johnson what percentage is actually reimbursed because particularly we know like businesses that are on contract you know we can guaranteed
  • 03:17:50
    that they have that in their budget, some of those large organizations, corporations.
  • 03:17:54
    But for our event organizers, many of them are coming to the city or the county or the state or philanthropy to cover some of those costs.
  • 03:18:03
    And it would be helpful for us to know what those margins are if there are organizations that are struggling.
  • 03:18:12
    If we have that information, we can look at what investments in STAR or PED.
  • 03:18:19
    can actually help fulfill that.
  • 03:18:21
    So I just wanted to just state that on record because when I did request for some of those bills and how the tracking of the years of how often people have actually paid back, that's the intent behind it.
  • 03:18:39
    And I think that information and that transparency is going to be helpful with Council's decision on how we want to support our events and festivals.
• • SPEAKER_09
  • 03:18:51
    Council Member Bui, Vice President Kim, so I can tell you that this year through June we've invoiced 1.5 million in overtime for reimbursed overtime and we have 11,900 outstanding and then as far as the margins that we talked about earlier in the presentation well we have Alyssa Arcan has that and we'll get that information for you actual estimated cost versus what ended up being billing
• • SPEAKER_06
  • 03:19:23
    Thank you everyone for your time and attention.
  • 03:19:26
    I apologize we didn't get to all the questions that were submitted but they have been submitted since I answered prepared so we'll help facilitate that follow-up to the council members that ask questions by email in preparation and without the budget and finance committee of the council is adjourned.